CoP Enclosure Spreadsheet

[Bart70]

if you could make one that was a simple " coastals minimum size 1800mmL X 800mmH X600mmD " and then just indicate if the animal is an arboreal species and it can be converted to hight rather than length then id definitely use it and im sure plenty of others would to

This is why I was saying it is not that easy......

There is no such thing as a single "dimensional measurement" that is compliant.........I have enclosures of all shapes and sizes that comply - The only 'minimum' is the calculated area that you must comply with....not dimensional measurement.

When it is all said and done it is only 2 things you need to know......

1. Area of the enclosure (the floor area or the largest of floor and wall if a climbing species)

2.The smallest floor dimension multiplied by 5 to tell you the max length snake it can hold.

There is not a lot of science to it.....People read way to much into them.

(in your example....The area of the enclosure is 1.44mSq for a climber, or 1.08mSq for a non-climber. The max length snake it can hold is 3.0 metres - Apply these Area calcs to the Class Tables and you will see what will and won't be permitted in that enclosure providing it is not greater than 3.0 metres in length)

 

[jacorin]

ok bart... i have a bank of 4... ea is 900x430x460...... i have no idea how to work it out,im not maths literate i'm afraid. i understand i can keep Ants in them though...anything else,i wouldn't have a clue

 

[Bart70]

ok bart... i have a bank of 4... ea is 900x430x460...... i have no idea how to work it out,im not maths literate i'm afraid. i understand i can keep Ants in them though...anything else,i wouldn't have a clue

Just confirm - 900 long, 430 deep, 460 high?

I will include the maths of how to do it so people can understand it.

Cheers,

 

[saximus]

Ok so I've just gotten it to a point where it could be tested but I don't want to post it in the thread just yet. Would anyone be willing to volunteer to take a quick look and see if they think it's easy enough to understand? It's obviously still a work in progress but I just want a second pair of eyes to see if it's headed in the right direction. If anyone would like to do this just PM me your email address and I can send it.

 

[Grogshla]

can't wait for it mate.

 

[jacorin]

yeh bart....sorry mate should have said that...my bad

 

[Bart70]

ok bart... i have a bank of 4... ea is 900x430x460...... i have no idea how to work it out,im not maths literate i'm afraid. i understand i can keep Ants in them though...anything else,i wouldn't have a clue

Ok here goes...With commentary so it looks a little long winded - and this one has a little 'twist' as you will see as you read......

900Long, 430 Deep & 460 High.

Its area for a Terrestrial snake is length x depth (Floor Area): 0.900 x 0.430 = 0.387mSq
Area for a Climbing snake is length x height (Rear Wall Area): 0.900 x 0.460 = 0.414MSq

Under normal circumstances the minimum Area in the CoP is floor area - If the species held is classified as a climber you are able to use the largest area of either the floor or wall. In the case the Terrestrial (floor) Area is 0.387m2 - If housing a Climber it is 0.414mSq (rear wall).

So applying this to the Python table in the CoPs -

Python Class A = 0.15mSq min
Python Class B = 0.225mSq min
Python Class C = 0.4mSq min
Python Class D = 0.625mSq min
Python Class E = 1.225mSq min

So from this was can determine that this enclosure will allow all Python Class A, Class B, and Class C Climbers only (because Class C is min 0.4mSq - the floor area does not meet this but the rear wall does and can be used for Class C climbing species).


BUT.....

The minimum floor dimension rule needs to be applied now to determine the maximum length of any species in Class A, B, or C (climbing) that can be housed in it. The rule is:

4.3.1.1 The enclosure’s shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed.

In this case the shortest floor dimension is 0.430 - To find the maximum size snake, multiply this measurement by 5 -

0.430 x 5 = 2.15 metres.

So in summary.......This enclosure can house an Python Class A, B, or C (Climbers only) providing the maximum length of the snake does not exceed 2.15 metres.

So all Antaresia, GTP, RSP or Jungle are legal in this enclosure providing the specimen is no longer than 2.15metres. Note that Woma is Class C - but because it is not a climber the Area measurement used is Floor which is only 0.387mSq - Minimum for a Woma (Class C) is 0.4mSq - because it is not a climber the floor area applies which excludes it.

This is probably a more complicated example than most because it is the first enclosure I have measured that actually falls 'in between' the terrestrial and climbing rule - It has just been fluke that this one is a little more complicated because of it. Usually they are a 'clear cut' Class A, B, C, or D

 

[saximus]

That's a really good explanation Bart, thanks for the input. Maybe I should add a sheet to work this out for people as well .
Ok well this is it for anyone who is keen. Feel free to offer feedback (if it is negative, please make it constructive). There is a short set of instructions but hopefully it is fairly self explanatory. I hope it helps those who have been struggling with this

 

[BeZaKa]

That's a really good explanation Bart, thanks for the input. Maybe I should add a sheet to work this out for people as well .
Ok well this is it for anyone who is keen. Feel free to offer feedback (if it is negative, please make it constructive). There is a short set of instructions but hopefully it is fairly self explanatory. I hope it helps those who have been struggling with this

(Insert positive expletive here) Brilliant. Thanks for the time and effort you spent on this, I for one appreciate the effort. Cheers.

 

[BeZaKa]

That's a really good explanation Bart, thanks for the input. Maybe I should add a sheet to work this out for people as well .
Ok well this is it for anyone who is keen. Feel free to offer feedback (if it is negative, please make it constructive). There is a short set of instructions but hopefully it is fairly self explanatory. I hope it helps those who have been struggling with this

Not sure how to do this properly so im just gonna muddle through and apologise later if need be. I think this spreadsheet on enclosure sizing is a really handy tool for us not so practised herps . Is there anyway that a moderator could pin??? this thread/post/spreadsheet somewhere like "note worthy threads" as a resource? Again not sure if this is the right way to ask, just thought I would before it disappears into the ether. . Ps. Saximus is not paying me to endorse his product.... I will accept money though...happily

 

[jacevy]

This is amazing.
Thank you so much.
I am not in NSW but I think the more room we can give our animals the better.
I will be using this spreadsheet for all my future purchases.

 

[Bart70]

There are 2 things I would suggest that I have noticed so far, although I have not had a lot of time to play with it fully.

One is the bit at the bottom about minimum width - There is no minimum width. Your minimum width is technically 20% of the length of the snake with which it holds as per Clause 4.3.1.1 - The 20% rule is based purely on the size of the snake in the enclosure - if it is a 3 metre snake it requires a minimum width of 600mm, a 2 metre snake requires a minimum width of 400mm.

I would remove this and add a calculation to advise the maximum length of snake that can be held in the enclosure based on the dimension entered.

My other suggestion would be some way of being able to enter measurements only and have the calculator advise what the enclosure would be legally able to house. As an example - I often visit the s/hand furniture shops and check out old cabinets etc for conversion. I carry a tape measure and calculator with me and know the Area's for the classes of reptile I keep so I can run a tape over them and work out what I could keep in it and maximum length.

For people who are not confident doing this manually - the ability to enter Length, Height, and Width and have the calculator come back with a list of species and the maximum snake length I believe would possibly be a practical tool for people when they see something advertised at the right price but are unsure about what they may or may not be allowed to house in it. It would be a bit of work though......

Otherwise I think you have done a great job - what you have put together could not be done in 5 minutes and is clear you have put some time and thought into it.

 

[saximus]

Thanks for the feedback Bart. What you're suggesting is what I eluded to when I said "Maybe I should add a sheet to work this out for people as well". I might think about doing it since it would basically be the reverse of what's already being done.
With the minimum width thing, I don't know if you're looking at the first one I sent you or the new one but I added a column for actual animal length and I work out minimum width off that to comply with the 20% rule (or 100 for lizards or 150 for turtles). As the instructions say, if the person chooses to leave the length field blank, the minimum width is purely a suggestion based on what the CoP offers. The "warning" comment has also been modified to reflect that this may be the case rather than saying it is definitely wrong. I hope that makes sense

 

[Bart70]

Thanks for the feedback Bart. What you're suggesting is what I eluded to when I said "Maybe I should add a sheet to work this out for people as well". I might think about doing it since it would basically be the reverse of what's already being done.
With the minimum width thing, I don't know if you're looking at the first one I sent you or the new one but I added a column for actual animal length and I work out minimum width off that to comply with the 20% rule (or 100 for lizards or 150 for turtles). As the instructions say, if the person chooses to leave the length field blank, the minimum width is purely a suggestion based on what the CoP offers. The "warning" comment has also been modified to reflect that this may be the case rather than saying it is definitely wrong. I hope that makes sense

I just double checked on the one posted here which I assume is the new one?

When I select Python, Bredli I get Min Area 0.625 and Min Width 0.500 in the blue tabs at the top. I agree with the 0.625 but in my opinion putting 0.5 there as a Minimum is misleading because I can be legal with a smaller dimension.

For example I currently house an 18 month old Bredli in an enclosure that is 400mm wide (or deep depending on how you look at it). He is 18 months old so his enclosure must comply with the minimum adult specs of 0.625mSq area of either floor or wall (because he is a climber I can use the wall). Because his length is 1.2 metres he is only required to have the width (depth) 20% of his length so his curent enclosure (400mm) will legally house him until he is 2 metres long under the current CoPs.

If I were using the calculator I would assume that the minimum width by the CoP was 500mm and I would be unable to house him in it.

If you take a look at Clause 4.3.1.4 it refers to Table 2 for Minimum Sizes - the only sizes quoted in Table 2 are Areas - not widths or dimensions. I believe too many people look at the 500m dimension in Appendix B2 by mistake and believe this is the 'minimum' when it is only examples of enclosure size calculations to assist people - These are not the dimensions that form the CoP. I am unable to find any reference to minimum width in terms of a fixed dimension - only a reference that it must be no smaller than 20% of the snake it houses.

Whilst I understand it....I am concerned that others may be misled by it being tagged as a minimum dimension. To be further confusing, by the CoP it does not have to be the width - it is the smallest dimension but that is just throwing more confusion into the equation as the greater majority of enclosures will have the smallest dimension as the width (or depth).

I personally believe that just allowing a 'free entry' width and making sure it provides a very visible notification of maximum snake length would be more beneficial that having it auto default to 500mm and marked as 'minimum width'....Unless it is calculated on a maximum snake length entry...then it truly is a 'minimum width' for that snake.

Have I confused you more?.....

 

[BeZaKa]

I just double checked on the one posted here which I assume is the new one?

When I select Python, Bredli I get Min Area 0.625 and Min Width 0.500 in the blue tabs at the top. I agree with the 0.625 but in my opinion putting 0.5 there as a Minimum is misleading because I can be legal with a smaller dimension.

For example I currently house an 18 month old Bredli in an enclosure that is 400mm wide (or deep depending on how you look at it). He is 18 months old so his enclosure must comply with the minimum adult specs of 0.625mSq area of either floor or wall (because he is a climber I can use the wall). Because his length is 1.2 metres he is only required to have the width (depth) 20% of his length so his curent enclosure (400mm) will legally house him until he is 2 metres long under the current CoPs.

If I were using the calculator I would assume that the minimum width by the CoP was 500mm and I would be unable to house him in it.

If you take a look at Clause 4.3.1.4 it refers to Table 2 for Minimum Sizes - the only sizes quoted in Table 2 are Areas - not widths or dimensions. I believe too many people look at the 500m dimension in Appendix B2 by mistake and believe this is the 'minimum' when it is only examples of enclosure size calculations to assist people - These are not the dimensions that form the CoP. I am unable to find any reference to minimum width in terms of a fixed dimension - only a reference that it must be no smaller than 20% of the snake it houses.

Whilst I understand it....I am concerned that others may be misled by it being tagged as a minimum dimension. To be further confusing, by the CoP it does not have to be the width - it is the smallest dimension but that is just throwing more confusion into the equation as the greater majority of enclosures will have the smallest dimension as the width (or depth).

I personally believe that just allowing a 'free entry' width and making sure it provides a very visible notification of maximum snake length would be more beneficial that having it auto default to 500mm and marked as 'minimum width'....Unless it is calculated on a maximum snake length entry...then it truly is a 'minimum width' for that snake.

Have I confused you more?.....

I was confused before, now, I cant remember my name.:cry: This is why I initially asked for assistance a few days back. As i understood the spreadsheet, as long as you are still complying with area measurement which is what it is suggesting (min width as a suggestion allowing variables to be entered) than it can suggest a basic YES or NO. Thankfully my enclosures are yet to be built and I will be moving in strictly 3 dimensional square planes eg 6 foot by 2 foot by 2 foot hence why i think it works for me. I do see what you are getting at though Bart70. Thankfully Saximus' sheet works for my needs.

 

[saximus]

We may just have to agree to disagree on that one (unless others weigh in on it). I see what you're saying but in an attempt to make it as accessible as possible I've allowed people to enter their own length OR leave it blank. If it is left blank, then the minimum is purely a suggestion. If I were to take that warning out completely, it may lead people to assume that their selected dimensions are valid when they may not be. So, in this way, it errs on the side of caution which I consider to be preferable.

 

[phatty]

great job sax

 

[jacorin]

Ok here goes...With commentary so it looks a little long winded - and this one has a little 'twist' as you will see as you read......

900Long, 430 Deep & 460 High.

Its area for a Terrestrial snake is length x depth (Floor Area): 0.900 x 0.430 = 0.387mSq
Area for a Climbing snake is length x height (Rear Wall Area): 0.900 x 0.460 = 0.414MSq

Under normal circumstances the minimum Area in the CoP is floor area - If the species held is classified as a climber you are able to use the largest area of either the floor or wall. In the case the Terrestrial (floor) Area is 0.387m2 - If housing a Climber it is 0.414mSq (rear wall).

So applying this to the Python table in the CoPs -

Python Class A = 0.15mSq min
Python Class B = 0.225mSq min
Python Class C = 0.4mSq min
Python Class D = 0.625mSq min
Python Class E = 1.225mSq min

So from this was can determine that this enclosure will allow all Python Class A, Class B, and Class C Climbers only (because Class C is min 0.4mSq - the floor area does not meet this but the rear wall does and can be used for Class C climbing species).


BUT.....

The minimum floor dimension rule needs to be applied now to determine the maximum length of any species in Class A, B, or C (climbing) that can be housed in it. The rule is:

4.3.1.1 The enclosure’s shortest floor dimension must not be less than 20% of the total length of the largest snake being housed.

In this case the shortest floor dimension is 0.430 - To find the maximum size snake, multiply this measurement by 5 -

0.430 x 5 = 2.15 metres.

So in summary.......This enclosure can house an Python Class A, B, or C (Climbers only) providing the maximum length of the snake does not exceed 2.15 metres.

So all Antaresia, GTP, RSP or Jungle are legal in this enclosure providing the specimen is no longer than 2.15metres. Note that Woma is Class C - but because it is not a climber the Area measurement used is Floor which is only 0.387mSq - Minimum for a Woma (Class C) is 0.4mSq - because it is not a climber the floor area applies which excludes it.

This is probably a more complicated example than most because it is the first enclosure I have measured that actually falls 'in between' the terrestrial and climbing rule - It has just been fluke that this one is a little more complicated because of it. Usually they are a 'clear cut' Class A, B, C, or D

Bart,your a champion,thanks mate,i think looking at an actual example will really help those of us not able to get it into their heads,to see how it works....looks like i have to make a new cage for the woma lol

Shane

 

[Bart70]

Sax,

After a bit more playing I see another couple of anomalies....

* It is unable to calculate the largest of both floor and wall areas for climbers - My Bredli enclosure comes out way undersize because it is very tall and as the Bredli is a climber I can use the rear wall for area calcs (is 1.08mSq but calcs out at 0.360mSq) but there is no provision to enter height. Is there any way of getting it to take wall area into account for climbers? If my logic is correct it would need to calculate both floor and wall areas and then use the largest of the two for climbers, and floor only for terrestrial.

* For some reason it does not change to 'green' for me.....not sure if I am using it incorrectly or not so I am not sure if what I am seeing is actually correct, but I was able to get it to calculate assuming the 0.5 width thing (which we may have to agree to disagree on), but if this could be linked the the Snake Length entry and that made a mandatory field, it would be impossible for somebody to omit their Snake Length and end up settling on measurements for their 3 metre Diamond with a (incorrect) width of 0.5. Your disclaimer about the min length being able to be smaller also applies in reverse....it may need to be larger and if an entry is not made in the Snake Length it appears to stay at 0.5 (but happy to accept that I either may not be using it correctly, or something may be up at my end as i cannot get any 'green' tabs).

EDIT: After a reboot I got the 'green' function to work, but after adjusting the Snake Length to a length that required a 'larger' width, the tab still stayed green giving the impression that a 500mm width is permissable for a 3m Carpet Python (in this case) which by the CoPs would need to be 600mm to comply.

 

[saximus]

I left out the third dimension because I figured if someone is calculating for a climber they can simply use the height instead of width (hence the sentence "Measurements for this species may be floor or wall dimensions"). If others agree that measuring using height is too much effort and it would be better to have the third dimension then it can be added quite easily.

EDIT: After a reboot I got the 'green' function to work, but after adjusting the Snake Length to a length that required a 'larger' width, the tab still stayed green giving the impression that a 500mm width is permissable for a 3m Carpet Python (in this case) which by the CoPs would need to be 600mm to comply.

That is because the green colour is linked to the area measurement which is still ok for that snake. When the width was smaller than the new minimum, did the warning show up?