Classic forms.

[CarpetPythons.com.au]

I expected the usual lot to jump in and harshly defend such money hungry, abusive actions. There are plenty of reasons not to inbreed Reptiles such as: Doubles up on faults and weaknesses. Progressive loss of immune response. Increased reproductive failures resulting in fewer offspring. Emphasis on appearance means accidental loss of "good" genes for other attributes and genetically impoverished individuals. The pros are merely: They look pretty and they make lots of money. Only those that have lost most of their respect for Reptiles and desire profit and a name for themselves do this. But I suppose that is all it takes most people to convince them. Close relations produce almost certain defects and other issues in hatchlings. When inbred close relations such as siblings or offspring and mother will produce infertile eggs. Some embryos will die during incubation or during hatching and roughly half are likely to hatch at all. But again when there is money to be made from the few that survive then the others are acceptable losses to some. I merely have superior morals and there is no shame in that. The simple fact that health risks are increased would turn any true reptile enthusiast off inbreeding. Flame away.

If you had superior morals then you would not be keeping reptiles in boxes.

 

[B_STATS]

If you had superior morals then you would not be keeping reptiles in boxes.

Try to stay on topic, don't take that claim out of context. Especially just to try and create further hostility.

 

[solar 17]

"BLONDIE" the original albino found in a caravan park in Catherine NT is the "father" of 99% of the albinos going around and this line is now 5-6 generations old, now could you please show us or point to all the deformities "PLEASE" as l am sure with such a strong view you must have heaps of evidence.....solar 17

 

[B_STATS]

"BLONDIE" the original albino found in a caravan park in Catherine NT is the "father" of 99% of the albinos going around and this line is now 5-6 generations old, now could you please show us or point to all the deformities "PLEASE" as l am sure with such a strong view you must have heaps of evidence.....solar 17

How many hatchlings have died before or while hatching or shortly thereafter? That's the big issue. But they don't matter to the people attacking me on my thread.

 

[andynic07]

I am sure there would be many people who could boast 100% hatch and survive rates from albino darwins.

 

[lithopian]

Where are you getting your stats from re- hatchie death? Just curious

 

[B_STATS]

So you simply refute the cons I listed? Even when they were collected from other breeders? I am sticking to my guns based on what I have read. You lot feel free to do as you please. But try to stop attacking me for my position, it's quite bigoted and the only reason I flare up in the first place, to defend myself.

 

[Snowman]

So you simply refute the cons I listed? Even when they were collected from other breeders? I am sticking to my guns based on what I have read. You lot feel free to do as you please. But try to stop attacking me for my position, it's quite bigoted and the only reason I flare up in the first place, to defend myself.

It's great that you have evidence that you have "read". Now you can show us your source as proof and there is no arguing.
Unless there is no proof?

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

How many hatchlings have died before or while hatching or shortly thereafter? That's the big issue. But they don't matter to the people attacking me on my thread.

This could never happen in the wild could it? Surely every egg that is laid hatches a perfectly healthy, live animal

 

[Ramy]

How many hatchlings have died before or while hatching or shortly thereafter? That's the big issue. But they don't matter to the people attacking me on my thread.

Umm... most breeders of classics and other varieties wouldn't have 100% survival rates... some eggs are duds, some animals fail to thrive...

Show me statistics that prove that albino hatchlings have a lower survival rate than other clutches.

 

[orientalis]

You do realise that even out in the wild...............brother's and sister's from the same parent's come across each other and reproduce successfully and healthy viable offspring result..............and this happens with all WILDLIFE.......not just reptiles..........what do you say to that?

 

[MathewB]

So you simply refute the cons I listed? Even when they were collected from other breeders? I am sticking to my guns based on what I have read. You lot feel free to do as you please. But try to stop attacking me for my position, it's quite bigoted and the only reason I flare up in the first place, to defend myself.

The key word here is evidence. You can't just say you've read or seen something, because if you could then no one would be refuting the existence of the Bunyip, Sasquatch etc. If you had some tangible evidence then you would probably find that people wouldn't react so vigorously.

I don't know why you're so surprised about the reaction, this isn't the first time you've stated your position.

 

[andynic07]

The key word here is evidence. You can't just say you've read or seen something, because if you could then no one would be refuting the existence of the Bunyip, Sasquatch etc. If you had some tangible evidence then you would probably find that people wouldn't react so vigorously.

I don't know why you're so surprised about the reaction, this isn't the first time you've stated your position.

He may be bored on a Friday night and want a night of stirring.

 

[Snowman]

The key word here is evidence. You can't just say you've read or seen something, because if you could then no one would be refuting the existence of the Bunyip, Sasquatch etc. If you had some tangible evidence then you would probably find that people wouldn't react so vigorously.

I don't know why you're so surprised about the reaction, this isn't the first time you've stated your position.

That sums it up perfectly. We just want facts and anything that isn't supported with proof is just hearsay and a waste of time. I'm happy for someone to take an opposing stance to me if they have the FACTS to back up what they are saying. From the start of this thread we have asked for supporting evidence and the OP hasn't once given us a single source to back up his statements.

 

[solar 17]

That sums it up perfectly. We just want facts and anything that isn't supported with proof is just hearsay and a waste of time. I'm happy for someone to take an opposing stance to me if they have the FACTS to back up what they are saying. From the start of this thread we have asked for supporting evidence and the OP hasn't once given us a single source to back up his statements.

PLUS numerous others, as this is a pretty united front we have here....solar 17 (Baden)

 

[champagne]

I'm not sure if that's targetted at me, but I am the one who mentioned mongrel carpets. My issue with mongrel carpets is more about the people who sell a python as one sub-species when really it's another, or a cross, or whatever. It creates a lot of mis-information, especially for new herpers. You see it all over, people who buy a "bredli" and everyone on the forum says "coastal", you buy 2 turtles "a sawshell, and a ELN" and yet they both look the same. I don't know if it's wild-catching, or 3rd-hand-mis-information or what... but it happens enough.

My opinion is that we're unlikely to lose "classic" forms, because there's always someone who's interested in keeping them. For every breeder with morphs, there's probably another breeding locality specific forms and another classics. There are a few locality specific lines out there, but there is also a lot of variety even within a given area in the wild. There is no sure way of finding a "pure diamond" or a "pure darwin carpet" or whatever within captive collections. Unless you trust the breeder about the animal's origins and ancestry, you only know what it looks like. (I have seen some photos of mongrel carpets, especially jungle or bredli crosses, that just look dirty... just like I've seen some incredibly ugly things done with green tree pythons in america. Most of the time when you see someone's new python it just looks like a python and there's nothing unusual about it).

I think when you happen apon a naturally occuring morph, there's no harm it trying to keep it around.

It was directed at anyone who claims to be "purist". What I'm saying is very few lines are pure sub spices and once a cross has been crossed back 3 or 4 generations it is near impossible to tell if they are "pure" or not and more to the point they are pet snakes if it looks like a coastal and produces offspring that look like a coastal what is the big problem if it has a % of jungle blood in it? I believe that the wild caught locality lines should be kept pure and they are, people use them for outcrossing but most still keep them pure and if you want those animals you can find them... Yes there are dishonest sellers out they, But that's a different subject.

 

[B_STATS]

[Link removed] Shows that others agree with me that any inbreeding between close relatives is harmful. [link Removed] - Seems to agree that inbreeding should only be done rarely. The general opinion is that greedy breeders do it for money and it is not preferred by anyone else. My links keep getting deleted too. The fact is there ARE risks involved but the prospect of money outweighs the animals wellbeing to those that do it so they ignore the risks. Honestly I don't know why this turned into a scientific load of junk. I merely stated my opinion and was seeking like-minded individuals and now I get the die-hard inbreeders going ape at me? Crazy.

 

[Rogue5861]

link removed - Shows that others agree with me that any inbreeding between close relatives is harmful. Link removed - Seems to agree that inbreeding should only be done rarely. The general opinion is that greedy breeders do it for money and it is not preferred by anyone else. My links keep getting deleted too. The fact is there ARE risks involved but the prospect of money outweighs the animals wellbeing to those that do it so they ignore the risks. Honestly I don't know why this turned into a scientific load of junk. I merely stated my opinion and was seeking like-minded individuals and now I get the die-hard inbreeders going ape at me? Crazy.

Clearly a very uneducated opinion.

I know people that have been breeders of different species of animals for generations an inbreeding is something that most breeders do (birds, reptiles, dogs, fish). If an animal isn't broke don't try an fix it, breeding with a genetically defected animal is one thing advanced breeders don't do. Couldn't say the same for the amateur or inexperience breeders though.

Your opinion is only shared by very few people that can't grasp the concept of wild "locale" animals, these animals clearly inbreed an show little to no problems.

Hatch rates and survive rates are far lower in the wild then in captivity. And a lot of advanced breeders are getting 100% hatch/survive rates out of albinos, amateur breeders of "classics" would have much lower rates of survival due to inexperience or genetically flawed animals.

The problems that I think you are referring to are ones that most advanced breeders don't have crop up often enough to warrant a panic attack. I've breed chickens that have had splayed foot and a brick was the cure, not wanting to breed this into future generation.

Breeding of dogs has gone on for hundreds of years an there are now species with genetic defects, it is the greedy breeders that have continued to breed these animals for specific traits that have lead to the demise of the species. Pugs and Dachshunds spring to mind with the problems that they get to look forward to in life.

I don't believe snakes to have anywhere near the same genetic make up of dogs an any breeder that would breed an animal that continually has recurring problems (RI, Tumors ect.) are the unethical ones.

Inexperience breeders are what pose a threat no the advanced breeders with decades of experience.



Rick

 

[RedFox]

A lot of you don't get it. There are first time and amateur breeders all over the place right now getting ready to inbreed any unusual coloured animals with their parents to get one of these 'pretties' everyone goes on about all the time. The image being planted is that basic forms are worthless and if you want to be a successful breeder you must try for morphs. It's already getting out of hand. Just read through internet forums and you'll at least start supporting that a specially earned license should be required to breed any reptile. Just look at what the other countries are doing to our wildlife when they get their hands on them. The future for reptile keeping looks sad. Never mind what they do in the wild. Look at what Humans are doing to them in captivity. Do you want Reptiles to become like mere dogs?

I'm a little confused by this comment. Firstly I am not a breeder and have very little interest in long term breeding. I am not 'pro' morph but neither am I against it. I just simply don't understand what point you are try to make other than you don't like morphs.

How does what other countries do with their animals affect us in Australia?

And so you don't care about some of our declining wildlife more about others pets. What are we doing to them in captivity? Providing animals with a higher survival rate?

As for the amateur breeder bit at the start, I think you may have underestimated the amount of time (years not months) it takes to prove out a morph if it is even genetically inheritable. By the time the morph is proven the amateur would not be an amateur anymore. And if anyone buys an unproven morph from a random breeder with no reputation well they are an idiot. I doubt anyone succeeded with a get rich quick scheme involving breeding.

Oh and the license part, forget about just for breeding maybe it would be more useful and better for the welfare if our animals to have it for keeping in general. A lot of threads have shown on here that even basic knowledge of reptiles is lacking and a lot of people are hell bent on comparing them with dogs.

Out of curiosity, what animals do you own?

 

[Pitttownboy]

How many RSP were brought into captivity and how many of these fantastic animals are now around, they don't seem to be suffering from line breeding, they are also to my knowledge still of natural colour and form, I breed diamonds, mine are blaxland ridge locality, very dark as adults bright green as young, mine are true local colouring as one was wild caught wires saved never to be released, so if you look around and even advertise that u are after a certain "normal" looking animal then they are out there and normally fairly well priced. I also breed black childreni known as a morph but these animals now 3rd gen were originally wild caught however that area won't be disclosed out of fear someone will plunder the area. Without the morph breeders ( which I am not, I prefer pure ) then the hobby would be in a lot worse shape, now I can go to any pet shop and buy tanks or frozen rodents as well as the important things like medicine workers etc. Ten yrs ago none of this was possible unless you knew someone who knew someone. The morph breeders made this happen and the hobby is better for it. Vets now know what to do in most cases. If people didn't want the weird and the wonderful then we wouldn't breed them, supply and demand and I am sure if you were the first person to get an albino u would line breed it and sell for profit, any human would