Is it still a hobby?

[Merkinball]

After reading a recent thread on here that was causing a bit of heated discussion it got me thinking about a few of the comments and how it affects us as reptile keepers/enthusiasts. A lot of us keep an eye on Gumtree and other similar websites, and many ads often make it on to this forum to be rightfully laughed at and scorned. But what all this got me thinking about is, is our collective "hobby" becoming, or become a part of the pet industry? I see endless ads for seemingly unwanted reptiles, and some that I assume are the results of hobbyist breeding. Are all these animals finding new homes? or is the reptile keeping hobby heading down a similar path to backyard breeding of cats and dogs, and we are going to end up with many animals being killed or released because they can not be rehomed. I personally have no problems with the concept of breeding great snakes, morphs and true form alike , and many of the animals being produced are absolutely stunning. I am happy with the animals I have and wouldn't trade them for anything, but are these "super" animals perhaps encouraging the wrong people to buy and breed snakes under the impression they will profit from it because of the wow factor and exclusivity of them. And just to point out I don't think this is any way the fault of the breeders of these animals. I don't believe that many, if any breeders who are on these forums really profit from breeding, and I really don't believe that is the reason any of them got into it, but is there an impression to the greater public that they do? And we are seeing an increase of people breeding to try and make money? Only today I saw an ad looking to buy large quantities of snakes as they wanted to set up a reptile store but didn't know where to find a large quantity of snakes cheap. To me this indicates someone who has not researched or reached out to experienced people within the hobby, but someone who thinks they see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon and make some money. I think we have the greatest reptiles on the planet right here in our backyard and I think I would really struggle with the idea of "our" hobby becoming similar to the US where I am sure hundreds of thousands of animals would be disposed of in pursuit of the next big thing, or people looking for the next "cool" pet and subsequently getting bored. So the big question is where do we want to go as reptile enthusiasts?

 

[Snowman]

After reading a recent thread on here that was causing a bit of heated discussion it got me thinking about a few of the comments and how it affects us as reptile keepers/enthusiasts. A lot of us keep an eye on Gumtree and other similar websites, and many ads often make it on to this forum to be rightfully laughed at and scorned. But what all this got me thinking about is, is our collective "hobby" becoming, or become a part of the pet industry? I see endless ads for seemingly unwanted reptiles, and some that I assume are the results of hobbyist breeding. Are all these animals finding new homes? or is the reptile keeping hobby heading down a similar path to backyard breeding of cats and dogs, and we are going to end up with many animals being killed or released because they can not be rehomed. I personally have no problems with the concept of breeding great snakes, morphs and true form alike , and many of the animals being produced are absolutely stunning. I am happy with the animals I have and wouldn't trade them for anything, but are these "super" animals perhaps encouraging the wrong people to buy and breed snakes under the impression they will profit from it because of the wow factor and exclusivity of them. And just to point out I don't think this is any way the fault of the breeders of these animals. I don't believe that many, if any breeders who are on these forums really profit from breeding, and I really don't believe that is the reason any of them got into it, but is there an impression to the greater public that they do? And we are seeing an increase of people breeding to try and make money? Only today I saw an ad looking to buy large quantities of snakes as they wanted to set up a reptile store but didn't know where to find a large quantity of snakes cheap. To me this indicates someone who has not researched or reached out to experienced people within the hobby, but someone who thinks they see an opportunity to jump on a bandwagon and make some money. I think we have the greatest reptiles on the planet right here in our backyard and I think I would really struggle with the idea of "our" hobby becoming similar to the US where I am sure hundreds of thousands of animals would be disposed of in pursuit of the next big thing, or people looking for the next "cool" pet and subsequently getting bored. So the big question is where do we want to go as reptile enthusiasts?

Over here in WA prices are still very high because supply is low and demand is high. You would expect native reptiles to be similar to what happened with native birds on license. To me breeding native birds is still a hobby... The best of both worlds is if your hobby can be partly funded from itself.

 

[bk201]

breeders have made and still do make loads of tax free money.

 

[Snowman]

Is it a full moon tonight? Lol

 

[Ramy]

breeders have made and still do make loads of tax free money.

I would dispute that. Sure it's hard to audit, but legally you've got to claim your profit on such things. Most small-time breeders will only really make back their initial investment, electricity bills, feed bills, and maybe enough to buy a nice hat. Most of the bigger breeders would have ABNs or stores and keep account of their profits and expenses. The people with the most successful lines of morphs are breeding several clutches a year, and spending a lot of time on those animals, to the point that it becomes a respectable portion of their income. Feel free to prove me wrong, but that is my understanding.

Meanwhile, I think most keepers keep reptiles as a hobby. The population of this forum (while not a random survey, still a reasonable sample) seems to be primarily made up of people who treat reptile keeping as a hobby.

I have sometimes felt like people treat breeding as too much a part of the hobby, but so far we seem to have a reasonable balance between supply and demand. Bearded dragons and other shorter lived animals are better for breeders, however pythons and turtles live for quite a while longer. Maybe in the future we'll see an over-abundance of certain animals. I'm rather hoping that we can educate reptile keepers into being responsible if they breed. Maybe that's the advantage our hobby has over backyard breeding of cats, dogs and rabbits. Reptile keeping, being newer, has started off with a better understanding of animals and the environment. Maybe Australia's wildlife would be better off if we knew better when we started keeping cats as pets?

 

[mcloughlin2]

By keeping reptiles you have involved yourself in the pet trade. It doesn't matter whether it was today you started or in the 70s. The moment you keep any living creature in captivity it falls under the category of pet trade. It remains a hobby until you turn it into a business in which you depend on the income. If you're just a breeder breeding a few clutches a year and the money is going towards other reptiles/covering costs it's a hobby and I don't see anything wrong with that? I for one am very motivated by the idea of making money, the reality is I just try to justify spending my hard earned savings by telling myself I'll make it all back. I doubt many reptiles are being euthanized or released because of over supply. More likely from people buying the reptiles and getting sick of them. Something which is unavoidable unless we increase education.

 

[Varanoidea]

Whether or not it's a hobby just depends on the person really. But small-scale educated breeding at least allows for some funding towards all your collection herps once you've made back your initial investment.

 

[Merkinball]

. If you're just a breeder breeding a few clutches a year and the money is going towards other reptiles/covering costs it's a hobby and I don't see anything wrong with that? I for one am very motivated by the idea of making money, the reality is I just try to justify spending my hard earned savings by telling myself I'll make it all back. I doubt many reptiles are being euthanized or released because of over supply. More likely from people buying the reptiles and getting sick of them. Something which is unavoidable unless we increase education.

I wouldn't say i have an issue with people making money from breeding reptiles, but this gets back to many other threads which have questioned lineage of animals and sellers adding the 100%, 66% het tags to sell more of a potentially common animal. But that thread has been done over and over so we don't need to debate that, i'm all for research before buying. A common theme that i have noticed is the need for education, with all the differing opinions,directions and levels of benefit of all involved, how do we create a common consensus among this ever growing community.

 

[junglepython2]

breeders have made and still do make loads of tax free money.

Very few breeders make loads of money. If they did they wouldn't have there day jobs.

 

[Merkinball]

Whether or not it's a hobby just depends on the person really. But small-scale educated breeding at least allows for some funding towards all your collection herps once you've made back your initial investment.

Making your hobby self funding is certainly an ideal situation. My question i guess is what is the output vs the input. I don't have any numbers of how many reptiles are kept in Australia, or the number of legal owners, but lets say the average clutch is 15 animals, therefore for every person who breeds a pair, you would need at least, i would hazard a guess, potentially 5 new licence owners per clutch, maybe more maybe less depending on the species and quality. Can every animal be homed if say 5000 - 10,000 people had the same idea. These are obviously not correct numbers, but i think you can see what the question is. Are we heading for potential oversupply?

 

[Snowman]

I wouldn't say i have an issue with people making money from breeding reptiles, but this gets back to many other threads which have questioned lineage of animals and sellers adding the 100%, 66% het tags to sell more of a potentially common animal. But that thread has been done over and over so we don't need to debate that, i'm all for research before buying. A common theme that i have noticed is the need for education, with all the differing opinions,directions and levels of benefit of all involved, how do we create a common consensus among this ever growing community.

I don't think there is a need for a common consensus. But I think to be taken seriously you need to have some factual information to support what ever point of view it is you are trying to portray. As long as you are happy with what you do, it shouldn't matter what the next bloke does. As far as the pet trade, none of it is a resource for replenishing wild stock. If anyone is worried about pure stock then conservation of wild populations is the first port of call. Pet reptiles will always cover standard specimens through to strange morphs. Mostly because we are such a diverse group of people and we all like different specimens.... Again I refer to the licensed bird keepers, just because they have been around a lot longer.... They have their morphs, but you can still get normal's as well. It's hard to imagine reptiles being any different.
If people are making money, it's only because they have something someone else wants. You can't begrudge anyone for that! Personally I like to hear people doing well rather than being stuck with a heap of animals they can't sell. They hobby is fairly self limiting in that way. If some one breeds 20 bredli one year and they sell 5, I doubt they are going to be breeding the next year or even the next year after that. It's just common sense....

 

[Merkinball]

If people are making money, it's only because they have something someone else wants. You can't begrudge anyone for that! Personally I like to hear people doing well rather than being stuck with a heap of animals they can't sell. They hobby is fairly self limiting in that way. If some one breeds 20 bredli one year and they sell 5, I doubt they are going to be breeding the next year or even the next year after that. It's just common sense....

Certainly don't begrudge anyone for making money from animals that other people want. With some of the amazing animals that are being produced, breeders should be rewarded financially for the time and effort they have invested. And i certainly agree that it is much better to hear of people selling all their animals, than being stuck with them. I just question with the amount of reptiles that we see for sale especially on the East Coast i guess that i wonder about the hobby being self limiting anymore . I certainly hope it is though.

 

[bk201]

Very few breeders make loads of money. If they did they wouldn't have there day jobs.

lets change my statement then besides snake ranch which breeders in nsw declared taxable income from python breeding? and yes some breeders make 6 figures and work a day job not all but some of the bigger breeders do or did before the prices went down but you wont see them admitting to it because they would not have declared tax as commercial breeding is not legal in nsw apparently...

 

[bk201]

I would dispute that.

legal and whats actually done is two different things remember that
as its illegal to commercially breed pythons and petshops only just got the go ahead to begin selling reptiles i doubt they have stores....several clutches a year? some breeders are breeding several dozens of clutches per year...hence the price drops...its not the pair of spotted pythons its the rack of spotteds next to the wa stimmies between the womas rack and the children's rack

 

[junglepython2]

I highly doubt any private breeders are making anything near 6 figures these days, maybe a very select few in the golden years when greens and albino darwins were commanding top dollar but not anymore. I know a few guys who support themselves with there breeding, but none of them are rolling in it.

 

[Pitttownboy]

Last financial year I made $20,000 of my reptiles and rats all cash and none was declared, why would I and why should I, I didn't take the initial investment of my rats and snakes and cages off of my declarable income so why would I give them some of my profit. My power bill has gone up ridiculously and they are only wasting the money Ido give them so they can shove it if they think I would declare my pets profits. I keep a very detailed log of every cost and every $ of income and I had $9000 costs between electric food medical etc $29000 income. This year I will reinvest about ten grand into a new large air conditioned shed for the rats. I include the rats which make a majority of the profit in the reptile profit and loss because with the amount of reptiles I have one goes hand and hand with the other. I have a day job so only spend approx 3 hrs per week on rats and 6-8 hrs of love and enjoyment of my snakes.

 

[andynic07]

I think that the poster should not let what others are doing or saying change what he wants to get out of the hobby. I also do not care what others do legal or illegal until it directly affects me. If the want to sell snakes and not declare it that is up to them , I would not encourage it but I certainly would not say anything or begrudge them doing it. It is their choice to roll the dice with their family and not mine. I am happy to go along my merry way and enjoy my reptiles for what they are. If the reptile that I want has a market value of $10000 then I make the decision if it is worth it to me and either fork out or save up to get it. I love the hobby for what it gives me and don't let what others do effect my experience.

 

[Pitttownboy]

At what point do u start to declare your profit and loss, if you get an abn for your reptiles and you don't make any profit can u declare the gst you have paid and get a rebate. If u make say $1000 profit do you pay the government $100 or do u only pay tax when you make significant profit.

 

[Rogue5861]

At what point do u start to declare your profit and loss, if you get an abn for your reptiles and you don't make any profit can u declare the gst you have paid and get a rebate. If u make say $1000 profit do you pay the government $100 or do u only pay tax when you make significant profit.

Over $75k and you need to start paying gst. A good page from the ATO regarding hobby vs business.

http://www.ato.gov.au/Business/Star...page=4#Hobby_or_business-_why_does_it_matter?



Rick

 

[andynic07]

At what point do u start to declare your profit and loss, if you get an abn for your reptiles and you don't make any profit can u declare the gst you have paid and get a rebate. If u make say $1000 profit do you pay the government $100 or do u only pay tax when you make significant profit.

Yeah not sure on the tax laws mate, I think it is determined by annual turn over. Like I said it doesn't effect me so I don't really think about it or worry about it. Every person has their own limits on what they think is an acceptable breach of certain rules and I am no exception so I tend not to judge others on their breaches.