Purebred Dogs

[Amelia]

This thread is a spin off RIP Merle posted by Fay. Here we can discuss the problems facing dogs.

Breeding for certain characteristics is resulting in unhealthy animals, it seems like the governing bodies do their best to uphold these characteristics & to adhere to the breed standards no matter the consequences.

I was recently looking into breed requirements.

According to their Australian standard, the British Bulldogs head should be very large, the larger the better. In essence the more C sections your vet has to perform, the better.

The Dalmatians ground colour should be pure white, so breed for deafness & you've got yourself a champion, this goes for Bully's too.

The Pugs muzzle should be relatively short, even if permitting a longer one would mean being able to control their body temperature & breathe normally.

Ridgebacks need a ridge, although without it dermoid sinus could be eliminated.

Certain breeds like Shar Peis, Bloodhounds etc should have loose skin, even if without the excessive skin ectropion could be weeded out.

There has been some positive change within the dog showing world recently, a change in some breeds requirements has been implemented after vet checks were introduced to the UKC, for example Pekingese should have a nose that isn't too short (though still too short in my opinion) now instead of having virtually no face.

Education is key in pushing for change. If the dog show world doesn't reward it, breeders won't breed for it.

 

[Pitttownboy]

Unfortunately those that judge are normally the once breeding these bad traits, look at German shepherds and there bad hips etc compared to ww2 photos of these animals

 

[Rogue5861]

This is just something people need to be aware of. Problems like neuro in snakes should not be bred even if the offspring are stunners, nobody wants to buy a defective animal.

I don't doubt advanced snake breeders are making the correct choices, but are the amateur breeders with little understanding knowingly breeding in bad traits?


Rick

 

[Amelia]

This is just something people need to be aware of. Problems like neuro in snakes should not be bred even if the offspring are stunners, nobody wants to buy a defective animal.

I don't doubt advanced snake breeders are making the correct choices, but are the amateur breeders with little understanding knowingly breeding in bad traits?


Rick

Genetics & scientific fact is something people in the reptile community seem more open to learning about & more importantly accepting than those in the dog showing community where it's definitely more about prestige & bragging rights. Neuro problems get brought up & openly discussed, breeders knowledge gets challenged. There is a lack of this where dogs are concerned.

 

[Rogue5861]

Genetics & scientific fact is something people in the reptile community seem more open to learning about & more importantly accepting than those in the dog showing community where it's definitely more about prestige & bragging rights. Neuro problems get brought up & openly discussed, breeders knowledge gets challenged. There is a lack of this where dogs are concerned.

Totally agree. I may be a touchy subject but it is something anyone planning to breed knows and understand.


Rick

 

[Amelia]

Unfortunately those that judge are normally the once breeding these bad traits, look at German shepherds and there bad hips etc compared to ww2 photos of these animals

'Kangaroo hocks' in Shepherds are another one to add to the list but thankfully this is more widely known than a lot of other negative traits in dog breeds. German Shepherds are one of the fifteen high profile breeds being focused on by the UKC due to public pressure.

 

[Newhere]

Its the same as the people breeding jaguar pythons with neurological problems, its all about the money and shallow people wanting a "pretty" animal. Imagine how many munted deformed animals are bred just so we can have a slightly less munted animal that looks good. Anyone breeding and selling these creatures needs a decent kick in the head in my opinion. I own a cross breed dog that is the most loving and loyal animal I have ever come across in my life and I wouldn't swap her for a million dollars. Sadly its those people that only care what the animal looks like are usually the ones that end up neglecting the poor things and not putting the proper thought in to what it takes to raise and look after an animal. Its not just the breeders its also the shallow dimwits that want a 'pretty" pet that create the problem. I've seen lots of people here with those jags and I think if you are willing to buy a potentially terminally ill animal just because it looks good then you are just as sick as the people that breed them.

 

[saintanger]

i own a cross breed dog, she is the most loyal and smart dog i have ever owned and also very healthy. she is a border collie cross red cattle cross blue cattle cross husky.

my pure bred chihuahua who i rescued from death row has medial patella luxation in her knee caps (was diagnosed wen she was 2 yrs old) and is getting worse with age, and also her wind pipe is so narrow and small she can not be walked on lead to collar as she can't breath so she can only be walk with a harness.

my 2 pure bred am staff, have had multiple tests for sight, hearing, hips, joints ect and have never had a problem and neither has any of their pups.

its a shame some people only think about money wen it comes to their animals, i rather a healthy pet than a sick one just to make a bit of cash.

 

[Amelia]

Sadly its those people that only care what the animal looks like are usually the ones that end up neglecting the poor things and not putting the proper thought in to what it takes to raise and look after an animal.

Its not just the breeders its also the shallow dimwits that want a 'pretty" pet that create the problem. I've seen lots of people here with those jags and I think if you are willing to buy a potentially terminally ill animal just because it looks good then you are just as sick as the people that breed them.

I'm not for a second implying that purebred dog owners don't love & care for their animals just the same & I have to disagree with your last statement, a lot of people have been fooled into thinking if they look for a reputable breeder they will receive a healthy animal, this is just not the case (with certain breeds more than others).

I was taught myself when I first started working with dogs that purebreds were superior, now through a lot of research & years spent working with them I know this not to be true but people looking for an animal to add to their home that suits their needs don't a lot of the time & will be taught otherwise by people they seek advice from. That's why I think it's important to discuss this more openly & make it known that if for example somebody wants to buy a merle coloured dog they are in turn propelling the market for this colour & increasing the likelihood of merle to merle matings so that breeders can produce all merle litters.

 

[LaDeDah]

Its the same as the people breeding jaguar pythons with neurological problems, its all about the money and shallow people wanting a "pretty" animal. Imagine how many munted deformed animals are bred just so we can have a slightly less munted animal that looks good. Anyone breeding and selling these creatures needs a decent kick in the head in my opinion. I own a cross breed dog that is the most loving and loyal animal I have ever come across in my life and I wouldn't swap her for a million dollars. Sadly its those people that only care what the animal looks like are usually the ones that end up neglecting the poor things and not putting the proper thought in to what it takes to raise and look after an animal. Its not just the breeders its also the shallow dimwits that want a 'pretty" pet that create the problem. I've seen lots of people here with those jags and I think if you are willing to buy a potentially terminally ill animal just because it looks good then you are just as sick as the people that breed them.

No one would purchase a dog let alone pet if their not attracted by their looks ect. Pugs for example have been around for thousands of years and were used by the Chinese monks, as hand warmers, so I doubt they were breeding for showing and looks back then. I own a pug, and a miniature australian bulldog and I certainly don't think people who obtain an animal that is 'known' to have complications are shallow or in it for the money. Both set me back a few grand, both are desexed, and the amount I spend on vet bills is up and beyond! So people who obtain these animals are certainly not in it for the money. Both my dogs are going on 4 years and have never had 'breed specific' problems. If you own a reptile, I'm sure you chose him/her because of looks or personality. Yes I agree that breeding for looks where it causes the animal stress, pain is wrong, It doesn't mean with the right care for their breed that it is cruel to own one or "shallow and in it for the money" as you said. For example during summer we don't walk them, put them in a cool bath, put wet towels on the floor and I don't see anything wrong with that. You fall in love with them no matter their looks in the end I guess... Sorry if any of this is rood, merely stating my opinion!

 

[Amelia]

No one would purchase a dog let alone pet if their not attracted by their looks ect. Pugs for example have been around for thousands of years and were used by the Chinese monks, as hand warmers, so I doubt they were breeding for showing and looks back then. I own a pug, and a miniature australian bulldog and I certainly don't think people who obtain an animal that is 'known' to have complications are shallow or in it for the money. Both set me back a few grand, both are desexed, and the amount I spend on vet bills is up and beyond! So people who obtain these animals are certainly not in it for the money. Both my dogs are going on 4 years and have never had 'breed specific' problems. If you own a reptile, I'm sure you chose him/her because of looks or personality. Yes I agree that breeding for looks where it causes the animal stress, pain is wrong, It doesn't mean with the right care for their breed that it is cruel to own one or "shallow and in it for the money" as you said. For example during summer we don't walk them, put them in a cool bath, put wet towels on the floor and I don't see anything wrong with that. You fall in love with them no matter their looks in the end I guess... Sorry if any of this is rood, merely stating my opinion!

Pugs being bred for hundreds of years doesn't really have a lot to do with their health concerns as of today, like many other breeds they were better off in the 1800's, they actually had muzzles, longer legs & their tails weren't double curled as they are today. How they look now is the result of selective breeding for exaggerated features that somehow became a trend amongst pug breeders, showers & buyers.

I do see something wrong with having to monitor an animals heat exposure purely because of how we've bred them. I also see something wrong with continuing to breed an animal with three different types of dwarfism, an animal that is knowingly predisposed to having brachycephalic obstructed airway syndrome, hemivertebrae, necrotizing meningoencephalitis, arachnoid cysts, entropion, fold Dermatitis, legg calve perthes disease & portosystemic shunts.

Even insurance companies & airlines know enough about the health of a Pug to inflate their prices & actually refuse the transport of a brachycephalic breed, think it's time the dog showers & breeders took note.

 

[LaDeDah]

Pugs being bred for hundreds of years doesn't really have a lot to do with their health concerns as of today, like many other breeds they were better off in the 1800's, they actually had muzzles, longer legs & their tails weren't double curled as they are today. How they look now is the result of selective breeding for exaggerated features that somehow became a trend amongst pug breeders, showers & buyers.

I do see something wrong with having to monitor an animals heat exposure purely because of how we've bred them. I also see something wrong with continuing to breed an animal with three different types of dwarfism, an animal that is knowingly predisposed to having brachycephalic obstructed airway syndrome, hemivertebrae, necrotizing meningoencephalitis, arachnoid cysts, entropion, fold Dermatitis, legg calve perthes disease & portosystemic shunts.

Even insurance companies & airlines know enough about the health of a Pug to inflate their prices & actually refuse the transport of a brachycephalic breed, think it's time the dog showers & breeders took note.

Not sure what you mean by the insurance prices and sending them over in an aeroplane. Both our dogs are insured for the same cost as my neighbours border collie. Our MAB was flown over with no worries. It's not all dogs that have problems. Like I said 4 years later with out any breed specific injuries/problems...

 

[Amelia]

Naomi, in Fay's original thread you wrote "You mentioned pugs, but I have never heard of problems with them due to breed specific traits? I know the King Charles often have problems due to their enlarged brains relative to their skull."

"Ah I get you now! Explains why my little one sounds like a truck when she sleeps!"

Judging from these comments it's clear to me that you know little about the Pugs health concerns & why they have them in the first place.

I've mentioned three different types of dwarfism (micromelic, achondroplasia, ateliosis), crowded dentition, fawn colouring being associated with skin problems, brachycephalic obstructed airway syndrome, hemivertebrae, necrotizing meningoencephalitis, arachnoid cysts, entropion, fold Dermatitis, legg calve perthes disease & portosystemic shunts. Feel free to google these conditions, I'll message you some with some more information regarding Pugs.

 

[Klaery]

Friends of ours have pugs (one black and one fawn) and while they have the coolest little attitudes ever, boy do they have problems. One of the puppies they originally had promised to them died when a pup due to the head/brain size issue (not sure of the details).

The fawn one has has an autoimmune skin desease that needs cream etc and he needed to have surgery to remove some of the damaged skin.

The black one has a liver issue that results in his body continually creating kidney stones. He is on a special low protein diet and has already had two operations to remove stones. They are now looking at further surgery to correct the issue (if they can find out how). The alternative would be that he is put down.

Both these dogs were from two different well respected breeders. The fawn one is only 3 and the black is less than 2 years old.

 

[Amelia]

Friends of ours have pugs (one black and one fawn) and while they have the coolest little attitudes ever, boy do they have problems. One of the puppies they originally had promised to them died when a pup due to the head/brain size issue (not sure of the details).

The fawn one has has an autoimmune skin desease that needs cream etc and he needed to have surgery to remove some of the damaged skin.

The black one has a liver issue that results in his body continually creating kidney stones. He is on a special low protein diet and has already had two operations to remove stones. They are now looking at further surgery to correct the issue (if they can find out how). The alternative would be that he is put down.

Both these dogs were from two different well respected breeders. The fawn one is only 3 and the black is less than 2 years old.

Thank you for sharing this information Daniel, it's important that we realise buying from 'reputable breeders' makes no difference in the quality of animal we receive when the breed itself is infused with genetic problems.

We hear that certain dogs have problems but are rarely told why they occur in the first place & that they could be avoided with a change in breeding & showing practices.

 

[Amelia]

These sort of breed specific issues seem more widely known in Europe. Here is a picture of some German bred Pugs, puts a smile on my face.

 

[Flaviruthless]

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Good thread, these kinds of issues need to be discussed more. I find it strange that there are 'working lines' and 'show lines' and yet some people say that the 'show line' is as competent a worker as the 'working line'.

 

[Amelia]

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Good thread, these kinds of issues need to be discussed more. I find it strange that there are 'working lines' and 'show lines' and yet some people say that the 'show line' is as competent a worker as the 'working line'.

Sorry, should be working now.

Funny isn't it? In my opinion until an animal has demonstrated its ability to work I wouldn't consider it a working dog, half these Borders you see prancing around the ring would probably overheat due to their excessive coats.

I generally prefer the 'working type' with a leaner physique & less coat to manage, I'm not saying these are of better breeding but I've found working dog breeders to be more open to out crossing, they don't breed for looks in other words. There is still a lot of inbreeding that goes on with working types too though.

 

[borntobnude]

O/T ish
I am at present looking for a Chihuahua x toy or miniature poodle , for my snake to eat , Daughter !!!!!!!!!!

At this moment I am not even sure if they are available here yet , I am sure they are but how readily ???

Some people on here may remember that I am against most "mongrel "animals , but hey , my daughter wants one
I don't know of health issues that are or may arise all I know of them is that there wil be $$$$$ involved

 

[Amelia]

This little piece of reading is by 'Terrierman', it concerns Pugs & brachycephalic breeds alike.

"The difference is that so many Kennel Club breeds are bred for intentional defect and planned misery. This is is systematic and institutionalized animal abuse by the American Kennel Club and it is abetted by puppy peddlers and dog dealers who call themselves breeders, as well as their show ring sycophants who put their own desire for fifty-cent ribbons over the daily lives of the living animals to be found in their own homes.

Why do wolves, fox, dingoes, coyotes, and honest hunting dogs have long snouts? For the simple reason that short snouts are maladaptive.

A dog with a short snout has no front-end eye protection when running in grass or weeds -- and yes, this is an issue for Pugs which often sustain serious injury because their eyes sit right at the "edge of the wedge" of their skulls with little to no orbit protection.

A dog with a short snout will almost always have teeth problems because the jaws have been shortened and now there is no place for the teeth and tongue to go.

A dog with a short snout will always always have a compromised sense of smell and may also have serious breathing problems if the dog's face is as short as that of a Pug's. The reason for this is that the nasal chambers of a flat-face dog are much smaller than those of a longer-snouted animal, and may also be crushed and twisted, obstructing the flow of air.

The bottom line is that Mother Nature prunes away its mistakes -- it does not give them a ribbon or try hard to make a lot more of them. And, as a consequence, in the world of natural dogs there is no canine that looks like a Pug!

If you have a Pug, try to keep it comfortable and love it until it leaves this earth. It's physical problems are not of its own making, and the dog is without sin. But pledge to never get a dog like this again. Dogs deserve better!"