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hayden123113

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Is breeding a stimmi x spotted legal, not that i would ever consider breeding that combination its just Ive seen hatchies advertised that are 50/50 stimmi and spotted and ive always thought breeding two separate species was illegal.
Can anyone educate me in this matter?
 
Many would argue that because they come from the same genus that It's okay. But it is rather frowned upon.
 
The problem with anteresia is proving linage as they all look the same. If you don't know the area species is found then its hard as colouring can vary greatly
 
I certainly wouldn't say all antaresia look the same. There are a couple of established lines that stem back before they were split up that are still available today which probably have a bit of everything in them. Why anyone would bother crossing the two is beyond me.
 
Although I am a purist when it comes to mixing and matching, most of the time it is a senseless idea

To think you can take two usually ordinary animals and breed them expecting to make something fantastic blows me away

I can totally understand something like this though
Breeder has huge coastal carpet full stripe male with good definition in the stripe and pattern
Also has big Palmerston jungle full stripe and pure gold and black female
Puts them together hoping the black gold and stripes hold through, thus producing some potential 3.5metre black gold full stripes
IMO that would be something to strive for
Although they would be mongrels; they would also be magnificent mongrels

Designer animals are here and will stay here now
But to design actually means a lot of thought and planning should be used

To mix and match just because you can with no idea of the end result using normal animals is an exercise in futility imo
 
If people cross a jag and a bredli then why not a stimsons and a spotted, I don't really see the point but but why not.
 
If people cross a jag and a bredli then why not a stimsons and a spotted, I don't really see the point but but why not.

Bredli and diamond's when bred with other carpets are illegal here in SA, other carpet X's are fine though. I dont see the point of stimsonXspotted either but what ever tickles peoples fancy.


Rick
 
Bredli and diamond's when bred with other carpets are illegal here in SA, other carpet X's are fine though. I dont see the point of stimsonXspotted either but what ever tickles peoples fancy.


Rick

Bredli x jags and jag x diamond and bredli x jag x diamond x albino mixes are rife in Queensland and openly advertised. I don't really have a problem with it as I see it as a parallel part of the hobby that attracts a different clientele and contributes to bringing equipment prices down.
 
Bredli x jags and jag x diamond and bredli x jag x diamond x albino mixes are rife in Queensland and openly advertised. I don't really have a problem with it as I see it as a parallel part of the hobby that attracts a different clientele and contributes to bringing equipment prices down.

As far as i see it they are all some what the same (all carpets), but the DEWNR see diamonds and bredli as there own species. We all know our local licencing systems are a little out dated.


Rick
 
NSW allows certain cross breeds to be listed in their licencing, specifically morelia spilota I can't remember about antaresia. The justification (in my understanding) is that if there are going to be cross breeds, they'd rather have them recorded as cross instead of sold on as pure and start to lose those lines of sub-species. I wouldn't be surprised if there are lot of pythons out there with a little bit of cross-breeding in there that their owners don't know about... if for no other reason than that they've been in captivity longer than the subspecies have been defined. Some people like the idea of selling hatchlings, but don't have a sense of natural heritage or maintaining locality features.
 
One of the biggest problems in the future will be identification

jag/diamond siblings as a simple example
if they look like diamonds they are sold as diamonds because no one can sell jag sibs
but what will their progeny look like?
they have coastal diamond and probably iryan jaya in their genes now
[ I suggest IJ because I doubt there are any pure coastal jags in Aus especially when you consider the average size of most Aus jags with the original jags which were monsters in comparison]
 
In relation to the previous comments, I have an issue with use of the term "Jaguar" in Australia. We have breeders here who have produced reduced pattern animals from entirely Australian stock which have the same form of patterning as the original Jags produced in Europe. The home-grown products do not have the gene linkage to the neuro-muscular mutations that animals of European origin display. Does the use of the term Jag mean that we are referring to animals of European origin?


I don't think any state authority is happy with the crossing of subspecies, let alone species. If for no other reason, it presents them with difficulties in putting a name tag on animals and in identifying n the types of animals held by a keeper when that becomes necessary. As best I understand it, NSW accepted the reality of numerous crosses within the carpet group when legislation was first introduced. While I am sure they would have happily banned all sub-specific crosses, their pre-existence makes that too problematic - you cannot have them as accepted othe list and ban their production at the same time.


There are more morphological defining differences between the species of Antaresia than just their patterns. In addition, genetic profiles are distinctive. So while they may seem difficult to distinguish on the basis of variable patterns within each species providing an apparent overlap, their are additional definitive diagnostic features that are available to provide an accurate species ID.


As Longqi points out, developing "designer animals" is often about mixing selected animals from very different genetic stock to bring together unique and "desirable" combinations of genes. Some consider this acceptable while others do not. As for the departments responsible for management and enforcement of keeping regulations, I would hazard a guess and say they they find it one large pain in the butt!


Blue
 
In relation to the previous comments, I have an issue with use of the term "Jaguar" in Australia. We have breeders here who have produced reduced pattern animals from entirely Australian stock which have the same form of patterning as the original Jags produced in Europe. The home-grown products do not have the gene linkage to the neuro-muscular mutations that animals of European origin display. Does the use of the term Jag mean that we are referring to animals of European origin?


I don't think any state authority is happy with the crossing of subspecies, let alone species. If for no other reason, it presents them with difficulties in putting a name tag on animals and in identifying n the types of animals held by a keeper when that becomes necessary. As best I understand it, NSW accepted the reality of numerous crosses within the carpet group when legislation was first introduced. While I am sure they would have happily banned all sub-specific crosses, their pre-existence makes that too problematic - you cannot have them as accepted othe list and ban their production at the same time.


There are more morphological defining differences between the species of Antaresia than just their patterns. In addition, genetic profiles are distinctive. So while they may seem difficult to distinguish on the basis of variable patterns within each species providing an apparent overlap, their are additional definitive diagnostic features that are available to provide an accurate species ID.


As Longqi points out, developing "designer animals" is often about mixing selected animals from very different genetic stock to bring together unique and "desirable" combinations of genes. Some consider this acceptable while others do not. As for the departments responsible for management and enforcement of keeping regulations, I would hazard a guess and say they they find it one large pain in the butt!


Blue

I was under the impression that the reduced pattern produced from Australian animals was from line breeding and was polygenic rather than co-dominant which makes it the Imported version (jag) the animal that is desirable for these subspecies crosses .
 
Jaguar carpets are a whole other kettle of fish to non jaguar carpets regardless of the morph/line type
easily identifiable

'look into my eyes'


While some breeders are still focusing on jags
most are getting out before the price drops too much further
 
To me I think it's fine. The mix and matching of colour and pattern as it keeps that intrest going in the hobby. It's not disimilar to breeding dogs to get better trates of the two animals. In saying that I think as long as it stayed in it own class groups. So no breeding spotted to carpit or some crazy like that.i would also like it if we knew witch reptiles were cross and witch ones aren't i know DNA testing could help with this
land all tho not cheap now may well be in the future. One must rember that originals of the speices must be maintaind in the hobby as well. Keeping a data base of where your animals have come from should be one of the things the hobby should look in to
 
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