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Your right Rob, the story about the Caramels coming from Hypo from you crossed with a Jungle is plain out wrong. It amazes me that so many people who think they know a thing or two about Carpets think that crossing a polygenic hypo with a jungle is somehow going to give you a co-dominate morph that has a super form.

Yes all jags have neuro problems, it's connected with the genes that reduce pattern and can't be bred out.
Neuro is associated with the JAG gene, and not all genes that reduce an animals pattern.
 
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Your right Rob, the story about the Caramels coming from Hypo from you crossed with a Jungle is plain out wrong. It amazes me that so many people who think they know a thing or two about Carpets think that crossing a polygenic hypo with a jungle is somehow going to give you a co-dominate morph that has a super form.


Neuro is associated with the JAG gene, and not all genes that reduce an animals pattern.

Simons caramels are from a hypo coastal not robs line breed to a hypo look jungle and from this pairing produced a caramel looking babies that turned out to be co Dom. Simon defiantly didn't have any of robs line he tried serval times to get some when he first started his rpm projects and yes I wasn't saying that all rp snakes carry neuro problems. What I was trying to say is the neuro problems in the jags is connected to the genes that reduce the pattern and can not be bred out.
 
Hahaha, actually no not that one, thats a new one,lol.
I dunno what its all about, people keep saying they have hypos from my line when clearly they do not, hell they are only snakes for godsake whats all the porkies and rubbish about. Starting to get a bit ridiculous, is all it does is make them look silly and fraudulant, if they all have my line of hypos where are they all, (pics), and why arnt they producing the same sort of hypos.?????

Rob so true you nailed it right on the head. ("hell they are only snakes for godsake.") really when it comes to morphs who cares where the breeder got the parents from and what line they are, their morphs. As long as the animals are health and have not physical deformities likes kinks whats the problem their morphs not pure lines.
What I'm tring to say is why does every morph have to come from a pure line if every morph was pure coastal or jungle etc I'd just give up breeding and let Rob and Larks and all the other pure line breeders that developed this lines do what their doing and sit back a watch and see where this hobby goes. If their where only the few breeders and no one else got in to it there wouldn't be much demand on this lines and the hobby would just sit stagnant and the future of herp keeping in Australia would die.
But while there is morph breeding and pure line breeding going on it gives hope for small breeders to work on their own lines on morphs.
 
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There is a lot of confusion on this topic, hopefully this will clear up some of the confusion.........

Orange Peppers are not hypo jags.

Orange Peppers are CARAMEL JAGS, Orange Pepper (OP) is just a label SXR put on them.

HYPO'S and CARAMELS are very different. CARAMELS are co-dom. Hypos are polygenic. Although they do look similar, they are very different.

Also CARAMELS originated in pure standard coastals and do not have any potential of carrying neuro. Only the JAG gene has the potential to throw neuro.

When a CARAMEL is mixed with a JAG the result is you can produce a percentage of CARAMEL JAGs or OPs.

Here is a pic of a CARAMEL COASTAL (not jag) as you can see very different to a HYPO COASTAL.

Hi Barra, please dont take this the wrong way and this post is definitely not meant to have a go at you or anything you have said. Im just adding this to hopefully help clear up some confusion.

From what I was told several years ago (may be right or wrong) the original caramel carpets that the SXR caramel line came from were bred in SA by Mark Sim and were a combination of a cross between a jungle python and a what was thought to be a super hypo coastal (from the trueblue hypo line. whoever owned this snake before mark sim Im unsure) and Ive even seen the pictures of the original caramels mark sim produced. From my understanding these caramels (jungle x coastal crossess) went to SXR and bred to (RPM) jags which resulted in the jags called orange peppers. So from this information it seems the OP originated from a jungle x coastal then x jag. Ive spoken to wayne larks about this and he also believed the above to be true and wayne being a good friend of mark sim who would know the truth, it seemed to validate the story.

There are other lines of caramels here that I believe came from pure coastals and also a line thats rumoured to come from o/s lines. But as far as I know the original SXR OP were progeny of a (RPM) jag x (jungle x hypo coastal) and not from pure coastals.

Im just putting this up not to create some drama or argument and only because I feel that all morphs pure and crosses should be labeled correctly as to what they are and originally derived from. That was and still is one of the problems the anti jag people have and I can respect that. I keep and breed both morphs including jags as well as pure line animals. I think its every morph breeders responsibility to label animals truthfully and consistantly otherwise the prediction that the lines here will become muddied beyond repair will happen. I personally don't have a problem with most carpet crosses and some are fantastic looking animals in their own right. But still believe that all crosses should be labeled correctly or at least indicated that there has been a cross somewhere in its background.

As Ive said that was the story I heard and saw the pics of the original caramel clutch mark sim produced and may even still have those pics somewhere. whether its true or whether the coastal hypo used came from Rob's line ( hand's down the best hypo line in the country) I'm not sure and not trying to argue these points. Just repeating what I was told by several very well known breeders several years ago. But caramels seem to have so many stories going around about them it would be good to know the truth. Cheers
 
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Hi Barra, please dont take this the wrong way and this post is definitely not meant to have a go at you or anything you have said. Im just adding this to hopefully help clear up some confusion.

From what I was told several years ago (may be right or wrong) the original caramel carpets that the SXR caramel line came from were bred in SA by Mark Sim and were a combination of a cross between a jungle python and a what was thought to be a super hypo coastal (from the trueblue hypo line. whoever owned this snake before mark sim Im unsure) and Ive even seen the pictures of the original caramels mark sim produced. From my understanding these caramels (jungle x coastal crossess) went to SXR and bred to (RPM) jags which resulted in the jags called orange peppers. So from this information it seems the OP originated from a jungle x coastal then x jag. Ive spoken to wayne larks about this and he also believed the above to be true and wayne being a good friend of mark sim who would know the truth, it seemed to validate the story.

There are other lines of caramels here that I believe came from pure coastals and also a line thats rumoured to come from o/s lines. But as far as I know the original SXR OP were progeny of a (RPM) jag x (jungle x hypo coastal) and not from pure coastals.

Im just putting this up not to create some drama or argument and only because I feel that all morphs pure and crosses should be labeled correctly as to what they are and originally derived from. That was and still is one of the problems the anti jag people have and I can respect that. I keep and breed both morphs including jags as well as pure line animals. I think its every morph breeders responsibility to label animals truthfully and consistantly otherwise the prediction that the lines here will become muddied beyond repair will happen. I personally don't have a problem with most carpet crosses and some are fantastic looking animals in their own right. But still believe that all crosses should be labeled correctly or at least indicated that there has been a cross somewhere in its background.

As Ive said that was the story I heard and saw the pics of the original caramel clutch mark sim produced and may even still have those pics somewhere. whether its true or whether the coastal hypo used came from Rob's line ( hand's down the best hypo line in the country) I'm not sure and not trying to argue these points. Just repeating what I was told by several very well known breeders several years ago. But caramels seem to have so many stories going around about them it would be good to know the truth. Cheers
Speaking with Simon he has said that the hypo used was not from robs line and he tried on several occasions to get some of robs hypos for the rpm with no success. In saying that anyone who has spoken to Simon knows he can be vague with details at times.
 
Speaking with Simon he has said that the hypo used was not from robs line and he tried on several occasions to get some of robs hypos for the rpm with no success. In saying that anyone who has spoken to Simon knows he can be vague with details at times.

that could very well be true and Im only repeating the story I was told by several people who heard it from mark sim, that the original SXR caramel line was bred by him and consisted of a jungle crossed hypo coastal (from whoever's line) that was the main point I was trying to make. that is, that line of caramels didnt originate from pure coastals from the start. whoever's line the hypo was is a minor detail and the point I was trying to make was this caramel line was not a pure coastal morph. But there may be other caramel lines around that did come from pure coastals, but I'm unsure of the facts on that.

I'm not trying to discredit anyone, argue the point or prove anyone wrong. I'm just trying to show some inconsistencies that I've heard about the line being pure or not. I have nothing against a cross carpet and keep a few of them myself. But I think labeling what an animal is important, and if it has a cross in its line then it should be stated so potential buyers are at least aware of it. I feel if they are a cross as I believe they are, then they should be labeled as such and not called pure. that's all I'm saying and I'm not trying to start arguments over this. If people want to believe these caramels are pure coastal then good luck to them and I really don't care one way or the other. I keep mainly pure carpets in my collection but also keep some crosses and morphs so don't have any vested interests in this situation either way.
Cheers
 
Coastal's x Jungle's do seem to turn out like some "caramels" i bred some a few years ago, i then bred one of the male hatchies back to the Coastal dam, the hatchies from that pairing turned out nice and look like caramels, but they are 75% Coastal 25% jungle.
I sold the hatchies and parents to Damien Hyde of Reptile Connexion.
Here's some pics of the hatchies and grand sire and dam.
 

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pythons unleashed,- I think you missed the point completely. if what btsmorhps is saying is correct then a number of people are doing their research to find certain lines and paying good money for them only to be ripped off. You dont find this dodgy and unethical??. Hell i only sell my hypos for $500ea and they are the real deal, they actually do come from my line. Not over a grand each for something that is not what it is supposed to be and from a completely different line, if thats what btsmorphs best mate paid?. Id be totally peed off if i paid good money for something that was not what i paid for.

I sold Mark Sims a hatchling 1st gen pair of hypos, [not super hypos, what ever they are?], years ago from the line that i no longer use. If i remeber correctly one of them died before he bred them, maybe thats why he put it over a jungle if this is true. When bred together this bloodline of hypos kept producing animals that were way to patterned for my liking this is why this bloodline got dropped from the breeding program.
 
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I did miss the point Rob sorry. Should have read all of the post first my bad.
I do agree their is too many dodgy breeders and they all know who they are. Sell it for what it is!!!!!!!!!!! I know first hand what it's like to hand of the cash for a great opportunity to only raise it them for 3 years to hatch not what they were to be great waste of time and hard earned money.
I was trying to say that yes be carefully a what your purchasing and if it's too good to be true it normally isn't. Use a trusted breeder and what I'm say in the breeder just doesn't have to know the whole history of their parents but at least sell it for what it is. Their is no reason for this mistake any more you can check up on every breeder, just look at what they sell!!!!!!!!
I sell every thing for what it is jag sib, coastal cross you can find all this info on me anywhere, my web page facebook even get in touch with my clients. it is as it is.

Sorry I know I could a little of track dodgy breeders just sit me bad.
 
Wasn't there someone selling het leucistic maccies a few years ago? Still haven't seen any white's procuded.
 
Wasn't there someone selling het leucistic maccies a few years ago? Still haven't seen any white's procuded.
Apparently the 2 pairs I know of weren't up to a good size and didn't produce a fertile clutch fingers crossed for this season.
 
Good post Colin, finally someone with some facts.
I personally followed these breedings very closely ever since Mark received the pair of hypos from Rob. The male did appear to be a super to Mark and myself. He bred the hypo coastal male to a female jag from Simon ( I do have pictures of both parents but want be sharing them without permission) the female produced a full clutch of hypos. Half of the clutch where jags and they ended up being named orange peppers by Simon who also called them caramels. In that same year Mark also bred the hypo male to a jungle out of curiosity, that clutch also produced a full clutch of hypos that had a caramel look to them. So this led us to believe that the hypo was indeed a super hypo and a co-dominant morph and it still breeds true to co-dominant to this day.

I believe those 2 clutch where the only 2 that male ever produced.
 
Should has said this line still breeds true to co-dominant as I don't think the male ever bred again.
 
pythons unleashed,- I think you missed the point completely. if what btsmorhps is saying is correct then a number of people are doing their research to find certain lines and paying good money for them only to be ripped off. You dont find this dodgy and unethical??. Hell i only sell my hypos for $500ea and they are the real deal, they actually do come from my line. Not over a grand each for something that is not what it is supposed to be and from a completely different line, if thats what btsmorphs best mate paid?. Id be totally peed off if i paid good money for something that was not what i paid for.

I sold Mark Sims a hatchling 1st gen pair of hypos, [not super hypos, what ever they are?], years ago from the line that i no longer use. If i remeber correctly one of them died before he bred them, maybe thats why he put it over a jungle if this is true. When bred together this bloodline of hypos kept producing animals that were way to patterned for my liking this is why this bloodline got dropped from the breeding program.

did you drop the whole line? have you done any out crossing with your current line to see if it is co dom?
 
Good to hear the facts that actually occured with these OP jags and caramels wayne. Apologies for my confusion with some of the details though.
 
btsmorphs,-
I still have animals from that line, i just dont use it in the mix anymore as every time i do more patterned animals tend to appear.
The 2 young i sent to Mark were from a hypo,( the line i dont use anymore) and a hypoish animal that was all i had at the time. Over the next 2 seasons i tracked down 2 more hypos that produced far better results and kept line breeding them untill i have what i have today.
 
Im just putting this up not to create some drama or argument and only because I feel that all morphs pure and crosses should be labeled correctly as to what they are and originally derived from. That was and still is one of the problems the anti jag people have and I can respect that. I keep and breed both morphs including jags as well as pure line animals. I think its every morph breeders responsibility to label animals truthfully and consistantly otherwise the prediction that the lines here will become muddied beyond repair will happen.

This thread is a good indication that if the horse hasn't already bolted, it's heading out the gate at a run
 
btsmorphs,-
I still have animals from that line, i just dont use it in the mix anymore as every time i do more patterned animals tend to appear.
The 2 young i sent to Mark were from a hypo,( the line i dont use anymore) and a hypoish animal that was all i had at the time. Over the next 2 seasons i tracked down 2 more hypos that produced far better results and kept line breeding them untill i have what i have today.
have you proven the animals you have being co dom or poly? would be nice if there were a hypo that was co dom but pure
 
There seems to be both in the mix. The bloodline that i sent to Mark is still in the mix but as said every time i breed back over that bloodline i get too much pattern in the young, so i concentrate more on the other 2 bloodlines for far better results. The hypos i now produce are 3rd gen from these animals..
I thought that a super if thats what you want to call them are from a mating from 2 first gen hypos.?
 
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