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Just ask yourself..

If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose?

Your answer would sum up your true opinion on jag/RPM's..

I never thought I had an opinion on this topic, but this got me thinking.

Really, I thank you. Thank you :)

I have to admit I'd choose a pedigree jungle.
 
If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose?

Are you saying that a python that has been line breed for reduced pattern (e.g. pin stripe mac, from head to tail) is mated to a wild type (e.g. blonde mac, no striping) 50% of the offspring will show the pin stripe from head to tail?

As with the Zebra and Jag gene you will have always have 50% of the offspring showing these phenotypes when breed to wild types.
 
It seems that more people are slowly beginning to appreciate the dedication a handful of breeders have committed decades to. Keeping locality stock 100% pure and line breeding for selective traits within a sub species. A large portion of fancy patterns and morphs can be attained through pure locality stock. I would think the majority, the only constraint is merely time and achieving some of these goals is certainly the long way round. I myself see it as the scenic route.

When jags smashed their way into the hobby, breeders had choices to make. Some got excited and eagerly dived in, some stayed out and other just got their feet wet. In any case I personally saw jags as a 'short-cut' to fancy looking carpets. So did many others when they were first spoken of. I found it amusing to watch some individuals mock and scrutinise those who dove into jags only to dive into them themselves. Will the time come again when people are embarrassed to say they own them?

I sincerely doubt many breeders today could draw an extensively accurate 'family tree' of the animals within their collection. Not just who they purchased animals from, but where the animals originated. How many breeders can be completely confident of their own collections? How far back can they go until it gets blurry? Jags will just further the confusion in time, especially with their siblings.

A few people preach that captive animals hold no conservational value. Perhaps not now, but what will tomorrow bring? Who knows what Homo sapiens will stuff up next? The bottom line is some keepers maintain a purebred collection because they enjoy the natural history attached to their animals. Others like fancy snakes in their cages. They are both challenging, but one is cloaked in mystery, pirates and porkpies..

Just ask yourself..

If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose?

Your answer would sum up your true opinion on jag/RPM's..

Very well written and actually covers alot of what I have been thinking. I went back and read alot of older posts on this forum and I did laugh when reading before the arrival of the Jag into mainstream, some well known breeders commenting in threads how people cross breeding sub species was getting out of control and how bad it was, and now seeing this same person now breading Jags to anything and everything and crossing subspecies at will just shows that a few people go where the money is at the time.
In time the value will be in quality pure lineage animals. A hot pure Palmerston jungle will be worth more than a jungle jag.
I was looking at maybe getting a pair of hot Julattens from a breeder who keeps both pure and mixed and when I spoke to some friends about doing it they straight away said "he cross breeds so the chances are they wont be pure Julattens, and if you do get them dont tell people who you bought them off". Now there is no proof this breeders Julattens wernt pure, but his name and reputation is forever tainted by the fact he cross breeds as well.
 
Yellowbeard,

No, that is not what I am saying.

The example I used was simply a hyperthetical scenario. I used it to raise a question. If the same results of aesthetically appealing pythons could be achieved (recessive, co-dominant or whatever) with purebred stock, would many keepers lose interest in jags?

Any reason you brought up macs..?
 
onimocnhoj,
Wow, thats the nicess way that i have ever heard anyone say,( no offence to anyone here), " stop keeping and breeding jags and mongrels ya stupid tossers " .
Well done, i wish that i could restrain myself as much lol.
 
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Yellowbeard,

No, that is not what I am saying.

The example I used was simply a hyperthetical scenario. I used it to raise a question. If the same results of aesthetically appealing pythons could be achieved (recessive, co-dominant or whatever) with purebred stock, would many keepers lose interest in jags?

Any reason you brought up macs..?

G'day onimocnhoj,

I would have to agree that if you could get the same results within a species (like a pattern reduction gene with the same mode of inheritance as the Jag gene) many keepers would loose interest in the jag gene as you would not have to create hybrids and also not have the associated medical problems that may/can come with it.

Unfortunately it seems that this will never happen, these "new" morphs (Albino, Zebra, Jag, Xanthic, Axanthic etc.) with a proven mode of inheritance mostly seem to originate in different species or sub species.

Genetically it is possible that all these morph genes are carried with in all species of python, however here in Australia we are extremely limited due to the low amount of breeding that is done which reduces the chance of finding them.

I was using macs as an example, but I would also be curious as what would happen:)
 
with the amount of people that breed coastals, they already come in most colour morphs and have several polymorphic pattern morphs, so it is only a matter of time before a pattern modifier gene pops up that is a simple mode of inheritance. The problem I see is that even if a morph comes out that rp just like the jag gene no one will believe its pure, just like the pure albino coastal.
 
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Out of curiosity I wonder what it would cost to get a snake DNA tested to prove its pure.
 
It's not the test that would be the issue, it is having and agreeing on the sample to compare it to.
 
The line of thought that all carpets are identical due to the results of DNA testing is comparable to when man thought the Earth was flat. Remember that these latin names for subspecies are always changing as we know more, but most importantly these are simply names given by humans for humans. Does anyone really think that all childrens pythons got excited the day they went from Liasis to Antaresia?? All of our animals are in their geographical locations for a reason. Reasons we will probably never fully comprehend.

There wouldn't be many breeders who would have line bred siblings enough times to say much about the inheritable traits present in their collections let alone the mode of inheritance. We have been spoilt for choice with obtaining animals from a variety of sources and very few would have kept the gene pool small enough to isolate much of their knowings. I suppose if it's the end result that people are after, does the mode matter that much?

If patternless carpets become available from purebred coastals, would it matter if they were simply progeny of a polygenic production? If the funky RP high yellow jungles are the same, wouldn't you want to buy a pair of those or does everything have to be immediately compatibility with another morph to be desired by the masses?

I truly believe many of the future morphs will be homozygous recessive and co-dominant. I breed Striped Tablelands Carpets and Striped Macs among others.. I have outcrossed and inbred with the mode of inheritance pointing at co-dominance with a super form. The great thing is the super forms don't die lol! We simply don't have enough time clocked up to be certain the genetics isn't here in purebred projects.

There's only one way to find out..

Regarding the authenticity of available progeny. It will always come down to reputation of the breeder and the level of confidence one requires to be satisfied with their purchase. There would be very few, well known breeders who could be trusted selling accurately described stock if they were keeping jags as well as thoroughbreds. I would love to say everyone breeding/selling snakes is honest, but this fallacy is far from truth.

This completely applies to any breeder in the herp world, but I believe many with elaborate jag projects/collections have created a small cloud of doubt hovering over them.
 
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I think a lot of people find the traits like Jag desirable because they can easily breed that animal with another and get roughly 50% with the desired look and this can be passed on to other colours and patterns fairly easily whereas line breeding can take many generations and thought to produce the desired outcome. I am not saying all jag breeders are like this and I know some put a lot of time and thought into their projects but it does make these animals more desirable because anyone can have a go.
 
If you had the choice between two identical looking carpet pythons. Both are High Yellow and RP with the same mode of inheritance to produce similar progeny. One is a RPM Jungle Jag and the other is a pedigree jungle, line bred from the Palmerstone. Which would you choose?

Your answer would sum up your true opinion on jag/RPM's..

maybe my answer would have been very different last year, last month or last week...
but my choice this week.. is the pure palmerston jungle :D
 
If the Zebra was originally produced here in Australia and was pure Jungle I would be all over them like a fat kid on a ice cream. I like the lookof them (well the high yellow ones anyway).
Same as a Jag. If it was produced in Australia and was pure Coastal, and most importantly they didnt have neuro issues I would have them. And really even if it came through questionable means but was neuro free I would proberbly play with them.
 
Patternles carpets from pure bred coastals may not be that far away. In another couple of generations i recon that I wont be too far away at all from producing such an animal, maybe even by then.
Probally the best thing about these carpets will be that none of these snakes grand parents or great grand parents have been overseas for a permanent holiday and had some of their young sent back home.
 
Patternles carpets from pure bred coastals may not be that far away. In another couple of generations i recon that I wont be too far away at all from producing such an animal, maybe even by then.
Probally the best thing about these carpets will be that none of these snakes grand parents or great grand parents have been overseas for a permanent holiday and had some of their young sent back home.

That would be good to see and would be something that I would pay big money for.
 
Haha, international snakes of mystery working on their frequent flyer points..

With such obvious neurological problems guaranteed within a proportion of every jag clutch, there surely is a serious breach of ethics involved. To willing accept that a number of animals produced will most certainly be doomed to euthanasia or an undesired, unhealthy life must drift towards animal cruelty. To intentionally reproduce animals that continually emerge from eggs to end up in freezers, just to have a handful visually appealing pythons is a choice driven purely by greed. How can this be okay?

If dogs could be bred to look like hyenas (or something desirable), but they had to be hand fed, couldn't run in a straight line and had a number of pups euthanised every litter - would this be acceptable? Would it be worth it?

Maybe I'm just old school or stuck under my rock..

I am sure if animal activist groups knew more about the upsetting life cycle jags endure (or don't) to please a an owner with superficial desires, you'd be seeing them at the next reptile Expo with pitchforks and flaming torches lol..
 
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