Current snake bite management?

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I'm with eipper on this one

Google Clinical Toxinology - Australian Snakebite....current to 2013

For me and mine this is the way to go

Cheers
Sandee :)

I don't think that their snakebite first aid part is up to date, the St. Johns procedure was only updated a year ago, but I'm not going to get caught up in an argument about it. In the end the most important thing is to apply a compression bandage ASAP and ensure the patient remains immobile.
 
Actually Blackstik.... Avru is the leading body for snakebite treatment they along with WCT actually advise St. John's among others including the various ambulance bodies etc.

To further my argument how many publications has your instructor authored or how many bites have they treated.

First aid is designed to treat a patient for twenty minutes and stabilize for treatment by a medical professional.

I have a bias towards Avru as well, the director of the unit peer reviewed the snake venom and envenomation section in my book on elapids. Correct bandage application with the right type of bandage (not a crepe) and immobilization are the keys to proper first aid.

cheers
Scott Eipper
 
Scott's post is pretty much what we use. The piece of fabric thing isn't rational. That means removing the PIB before they know what treatment to use. They shouldn't remove the bandage until everything is ready to go.
 
Actually Blackstik.... Avru is the leading body for snakebite treatment they along with WCT actually advise St. John's among others including the various ambulance bodies etc.

To further my argument how many publications has your instructor authored or how many bites have they treated.

First aid is designed to treat a patient for twenty minutes and stabilize for treatment by a medical professional.

I have a bias towards Avru as well, the director of the unit peer reviewed the snake venom and envenomation section in my book on elapids. Correct bandage application with the right type of bandage (not a crepe) and immobilization are the keys to proper first aid.

cheers
Scott Eipper

Ok fair enough, I'll admit I was wrong. I'll be sure to have a word to the ambo next time my first aid certificate is due for refreshing!
 
Thats a good point and why it is a good idea to mark the bite site on the outside of the bandage , so the doc knows where it is and can cut or move the bandage aside at that point to get the swab, without releasing the venom locked up under pressure.
Also, anti venom will generally only be given as a last resort, due to the complications that can arise from its use, and only given under the umbrella of available life support systems.
So you have to be in a hospital.

I have found that every time I re do my St Johns, that the instructor has a good idea of the proper first aid but not the full and complete method.
 
Hey Blakstick

You're not wrong ... You are just learning.

In the end all we want is the highest chance of survival

Keep safe
Sandee :)
 
Thats a good point and why it is a good idea to mark the bite site on the outside of the bandage , so the doc knows where it is and can cut or move the bandage aside at that point to get the swab, without releasing the venom locked up under pressure.
Also, anti venom will generally only be given as a last resort, due to the complications that can arise from its use, and only given under the umbrella of available life support systems.
So you have to be in a hospital.

I have found that every time I re do my St Johns, that the instructor has a good idea of the proper first aid but not the full and complete method.
Yep so true, when I asked why we have to bandage down then back up, they couldn't tell me, and I don't know anybody that does know the answer? The first aid courses I do are through Sports Medicine Australia :)Speaking of venomous bites, I noticed a number of Redbacks about the place already, if you are bitten by one of these little sods, do not wrap as for venomous snake bite, wrapping cause excruciating pain :(
 
The idea was/is that initial pressure is placed over the bite. The bandage is then wrapped down towards the limbs extremity so that any venom pushed by the bandage application moves away from the heart, not towards it.

Blakstik,
We can only go off what we are told and hope that the professional is truly informed.


The really scary part of the St. John's treatment is the recommendation of an inferior bandage type. Recent research has soon that crepe bandages do not maintain the required pressure over a sustained period especially during transit.


Cheers
Scott
 
The idea was/is that initial pressure is placed over the bite. The bandage is then wrapped down towards the limbs extremity so that any venom pushed by the bandage application moves away from the heart, not towards it.

Blakstik,
We can only go off what we are told and hope that the professional is truly informed.


The really scary part of the St. John's treatment is the recommendation of an inferior bandage type. Recent research has soon that crepe bandages do not maintain the required pressure over a sustained period especially during transit.


Cheers
Scott

I have to do Senior First aid every few years for work purposes and this seems to be an ongoing problem. I told the instructor (same woman) the last two times I attended that crepe bandage isn't adequate only to be told it was then ignored. It's not surprising that so many people have no idea about snake bite first aid when the 'professionals' cant even get it right.
 
Scott,
Given the differences between what the VRU publicise as their recommended first aid and your own version, I think many could be forgiven for feeling confused. That aside I have no idea where the notion of first aid being for the first twenty minutes comes from and would suggest it should be deleted.

Wild-Touch,
I Googled like you suggested and found some significant differences in the information provided by different entities, each of which was well credentialed. If you require specifics on that just let me know.


St. John’s recommend: ‘Apply a broad pressure bandage (preferably crepe) over the bite site as soon as possible”. “Apply a firm heavy crepe or elasticised roller bandage, start just above the fingers or toes, and move upwards on the limb as far as can be reached (include the snake bite), apply tightly without stopping blood supply to the limb.

I know from personal experience that lightly woven crepe bandage stretch with time and lose a measure of their elasticity. Heavy, closely woven, broad crepe bandages are much more resilient and can last 24 hours plus without becoming loose, again from personal experience. Elasticised bandages tend not to loosen with time but have the disadvantage in that they are easy to over tighten and restrict blood flow. Where swelling of the limb occurs, their lack of give can be a problem, not as readily experienced with the use of crepe bandages.

Applied quickly and corredtly, PIB should give you at least a couple of hours and often considerably longer before the onset of systemic symptoms. My question is does the research state the quality of crepe bandage and how long before it begins to lose significant pressure through lengthening of the weave/fibres?

Blue


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With Respect Blue (You baffle me with words)

I believe the experts already have it covered and that comes with many years of experience in dealing with Australian snakebite first aid treatment.

If you are bitten by "something" out bush (no mobile coverage) you cannot dilly dally and wonder what is the correct procedure.

Just rip your shirt off and apply as in a bandage. It may buy you time,

Cheers
Sandee :)
 
Blue, from personal experience I can tell you that the effects of serious snake bite can be held back for at least 5 hours. With the removal of the PIB at that point the full effects occurred. If I hadn't been hooked up and ready to go, I probably wouldn't be typing this.
PIB can give you a lot more than 1 and half hours.
 
Blue, from personal experience I can tell you that the effects of serious snake bite can be held back for at least 5 hours. With the removal of the PIB at that point the full effects occurred. If I hadn't been hooked up and ready to go, I probably wouldn't be typing this.
PIB can give you a lot more than 1 and half hours.
There is a lot of theoretical information on this site which has its place and is valuable but it is good to be able to cross reference this with actual stories like your own. Thanks for sharing.
 
Wild-Thing,
I have removed the confusing bit I trust.
Scott gave no indication of how to apply the pressure bandage in his own set of instructions (much of it based on the VRU site) yet he was critical of how others said it should be done. His reason why one should not bandage up the limb was because that would push toxins along. I simply pointed out if the limb is bandaged immediately, there are no toxins in the lymph yet and that empting the lymph vessels at this stage is advantageous to the effectiveness of the pressure bandage. If some measure of time passes before bandaging, there are still other things to consider... maybe save that discussion for next century.


Peter,
You are quite correct. That was not how I had intended to word it and have changed it accordingly. I would need to go back to the source material but up to 8 or more hours have been recorded and the average is something like... Enough guessing. The whole thing raises more questions than answers. I wish I had not posted now.

Blue
 
Ahhh thanks Blue, you'd think the first aid instructors would know that and it make sense too :D
 
Depends on where you get bitten ....wouldnt have mattered in my husband's case ,he got tagged on the pulse line in his thumb ...dropped him in a minute ...several heart attacks ..unable to clot ..bleeding from tiny wounds on his body ...docs gave him a 40% chance of survival when he was being sent to Nambour ,thing that saved him was he got first aid on hand by a gardener ..if he didn't get that he would've been dead before the ambo got there .
 
Blue, a thread like this answers a lot of questions for people. it also makes people check other source material after they make their comments. Hopefully it is a learning experience for all.
 
I think it is a little bit the same as CPR , the technique is argued about by many different bodies as being the most correct and keeps changing as more things are learnt or thought about but you will find that doing any of the popular recent methods will be a lot better than doing nothing and as long as you are not making the situation worse it is good.
 
When you bandage, you squeeze a finger or toe nail and the blood should slowly return if bandaged properly. If the blood doesn't come back the bandage is too tight.
 
IMO one point that isnt stressed enough is reassuring the patient
It may be ok for herpers because they should have some idea of what may happen
But Joe Blow usually hasnt got a clue and panic mode can set in quite easily

People have nearly died from non venomous snake bites because of shock

One other point is to keep a close eye on the victim and tell the quack of any changes you noticed between bite time and arrival at emergency care

If you dont know CPR learn it
Cobra bite victim was kept alive for over 5 hours in the back of a van driving to hospital only because his buddies knew CPR

Edit
last point
Keep the bite wound below heart level if possible
 
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