do snakes need a moist hide?

[TrueBlue]

Huh?, I dont have a vent as such down the other end the whole back of all my enclosures are peg board. They have a division in the middle and are heated on one side with NO thermostat. The unheated side is the same as the room temp.

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Couple of pics to show what i mean.

 

[ronhalling]

Very nice enclosures TrueBlue, in pic 2 it looks like the dividers don't go all the way to the back, is this just a vagary of angle or is there really 6 enclosures and the project was not finished at this point, I would have no problems putting my Nakies in enclosures like that. As far as the ventilation subject is concerned i don't think Blue had the type of ventilation you are using in mind when he said exessive ventilation, what you are using is passive ventilation so there is not a continueous exchange of air, what i think (and i do not mind being contradicted) Blue meant was having too large a vent on 1 end and too large a vent up high on the other end which does cause exessive air flow and air exchange (active ventilation) in theory this is a good ventilation system if set up right, otherwise especially in the colder months it can cause exess humidity and condensation in 1 or more zones of the enclosure IE above the lower vent and below the higher vent. This is my theory and opinion and i do not mind being proved wrong, iether way i might try the pegboard on my new Spotty enclosure when i get around to building it as i don't really need ambient heat so much as i need floor heat, it could be adjusted with some thin ply over some of the holes if it got too cold in the enclosure in any case. .............................................Ron

 

[andynic07]

Very nice enclosures TrueBlue, in pic 2 it looks like the dividers don't go all the way to the back, is this just a vagary of angle or is there really 6 enclosures and the project was not finished at this point, I would have no problems putting my Nakies in enclosures like that. As far as the ventilation subject is concerned i don't think Blue had the type of ventilation you are using in mind when he said exessive ventilation, what you are using is passive ventilation so there is not a continueous exchange of air, what i think (and i do not mind being contradicted) Blue meant was having too large a vent on 1 end and too large a vent up high on the other end which does cause exessive air flow and air exchange (active ventilation) in theory this is a good ventilation system if set up right, otherwise especially in the colder months it can cause exess humidity and condensation in 1 or more zones of the enclosure IE above the lower vent and below the higher vent. This is my theory and opinion and i do not mind being proved wrong, iether way i might try the pegboard on my new Spotty enclosure when i get around to building it as i don't really need ambient heat so much as i need floor heat, it could be adjusted with some thin ply over some of the holes if it got too cold in the enclosure in any case. .............................................Ron

I think that is what I was trying to explain but don't think i did clearly.

 

[saximus]

Very nice enclosures TrueBlue, in pic 2 it looks like the dividers don't go all the way to the back, is this just a vagary of angle or is there really 6 enclosures and the project was not finished at this point,...

They are heat dividers. It ensures that one end stays at ambient at all times without the heat source affecting it whatsoever.
I hope TB doesn't mind me linking his thread but have a read through this. It is a really interesting and different idea. Even though it goes against some of the things a lot of people on here consider gospel, I love the concept and it obviously works very well for him. I'm planning on trying it with the rack I'm building.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/trueblue-s-anti-thermostat-stand-59396/

 

[TrueBlue]

Those banks are only 3 enclosures not 6. Yes there is a gap at the back of the division, as said one side is heated the other is not and is governed only by the room temp. If they need heat they move to the heated side, when they want to cool down they move to the cold side simple and very effective.

 

[Ramy]

I personally think that a moist hide should only be used as a last resort, and only after a snake has shown signs of being close to shed (cloudy eyes/skin). I would not use one, but I don't have shedding issues. IF you have shedding issues, you're better trying to work out what is causing problems. If your water bowl doesn't get cleaned/topped up/replaced often enough, clean it more often (some snakes are fussier about water than others). If the humidity in the tank is lower than the room around, then you are better correcting ventilation problems. IF the humidity is low in your region, then AND ONLY THEN would I try to introduce humidity to the tank. Also, I'd be more likely to try a larger water supply, water at the warm end of the enclosure, or running water (a small water feature as part of the water bowl) than I would a damp hide. I feel like a damp hide introduces too great a risk of mould, mildew and respiratory infections.
I wouldn't consider it unless there are issues with stuck sheds. If anything, make sure you know how to deal with a bad shed. Leaving the skin on introduces other problems.

Just IMO. Opinions differ. I live in a fairly humid area and I feel like everything either goes mouldy or rusts around here, so if I introduced more moisture it would just be a mouldy swamp by morning.

 

[andynic07]

They are heat dividers. It ensures that one end stays at ambient at all times without the heat source affecting it whatsoever.
I hope TB doesn't mind me linking his thread but have a read through this. It is a really interesting and different idea. Even though it goes against some of the things a lot of people on here consider gospel, I love the concept and it obviously works very well for him. I'm planning on trying it with the rack I'm building.

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/australian-snakes-37/trueblue-s-anti-thermostat-stand-59396/

Just had a quick read through that thread, very interesting. I actually have removed my thermostats from my adult enclosures before this winter and only heated a basking area on a timer. I was a little worried about giving my reptiles no heat during the winter nights at first and kept a close eye on them but they were fine. Only one of my enclosures has a semi divider so I am going to monitor the two ends over the summer and possibly downsize the wattage of heat if its gets too warm. I only use my thermostats for snakes up to 12 months old and keep them in tubs with 24 hour heat. I have not come out and said this because I didn't want newer people even though I am fairly new taking this idea on board as I see thermostats the safest option for a true newbie. I also do not have pegboard as backing but also do not use the cross flow ventilation system to get air movement.

 

[Lawra]

I also do not have pegboard as backing but also do not use the cross flow ventilation system to get air movement.

Do u have a pic of vent placement in your enclosures? I'm about to bash holes in my new enclosure and am open to new ideas

 

[wokka]

We us similiar cages to Trueblue with the cool cage having pegboard backs and the hot cage having a solid back. The two cages are linked to allow the snake to move between the two. This maximises the temperature gradient so the snake has as wider choice of temperatures as possible. I have not had any problems with shedding , even with the additional ventilation.

 

[pythonmum]

Put the vents toward the bottom on the side opposite the heat source. This gives you the best gradient. Bigger vents are the best.

 

[TrueBlue]

saximus,
Wow thats a blast from the past. lol.

During the winter months its not unsual for the odd snake to not have a complete shed. The cold sucks all the moisture out of the air. I rarely have this problem but if i do have a snake that does this its always in winter.

 

[andynic07]

Do u have a pic of vent placement in your enclosures? I'm about to bash holes in my new enclosure and am open to new ideas

There are many ways to skin a cat and my enclosures utilise a few I think. One has six vents in various spots over the back wall.

there is three more lower that you can not see.
I also have some either end but all low and one that vents only at one end and down the bottom. All of my click clacks mainly have holes at the cool end and if I find too much moisture build up I will put some at the hot end to give a little cross ventilation.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I think the whole humidity/ventilation thing is way overthought or overintellectualised. In by far the majority of cases, for common snake species, apart from a very few which may have specialised needs, humidity of the enclosure or the hide is a non-issue. This thread has gone three pages with people putting in their 5C worth about a problem which doesn't actually exist if your husbandry practices are reasonable and the animal is well hydrated (fron drinking).

Jamie

 

[andynic07]

I think the whole humidity/ventilation thing is way overthought or overintellectualised. In by far the majority of cases, for common snake species, apart from a very few which may have specialised needs, humidity of the enclosure or the hide is a non-issue. This thread has gone three pages with people putting in their 5C worth about a problem which doesn't actually exist if your husbandry practices are reasonable and the animal is well hydrated (fron drinking).

Jamie

It may not cause an issue by itself but like an accident it is usually never one thing that caused a problem, you need at least minor things to contribute to the bigger problem and if a dry environment can be ruled out I think there will be less chance that a problem will occur.


Andy

 

[Pythoninfinite]

It may not cause an issue by itself but like an accident it is usually never one thing that caused a problem, you need at least minor things to contribute to the bigger problem and if a dry environment can be ruled out I think there will be less chance that a problem will occur.


Andy

All I'm trying to say is that after keeping snakes for 50+ years, and NEVER keeping them (with the exception of a few mspecies such as GTPs) in anything but ambient humidity, both in hot, dry SW WA and here on the mid-north coast of NSW, my animals very rarely have a problem shed. With Carpets, Antaresias and a heap of other species, and having shedding problems so rarely that they are a novelty, I believe the discussion re: artificially managing humidity in our enclosures is actually promoting a problem that doesn't exist. In any event, removing imperfect sheds is not a problem on the rare occasions that they do occur.

It is possible that many keepers think that heat is good, so more heat is better. This is likely to "bake" the old skin onto the animal, but apart from that possibility, I can't think why shedding is such a cause for anxiety for new keepers (and it seems to be largely a novice concern). None of the "old-hands" I know give adding extra humidity a second thought.

Jamie

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Well Jamie I haven’t kept snake for 50 years yet ( about 30) but I can say for a fact that keeping pythons in Port Hedland I have had to change practice in the way of increasing humidity during winter. Our winters on the Pilbara coast here can extremely dry indeed and I learnt very quickly that unless I adjusted the ventilation slightly to increase humidity for a few months, I had shedding problems despite continuous access to water. I never experienced this problem anywhere else I have lived however.

 

[Ramy]

Well Jamie I haven’t kept snake for 50 years yet ( about 30) but I can say for a fact that keeping pythons in Port Hedland I have had to change practice in the way of increasing humidity during winter. Our winters on the Pilbara coast here can extremely dry indeed and I learnt very quickly that unless I adjusted the ventilation slightly to increase humidity for a few months, I had shedding problems despite continuous access to water. I never experienced this problem anywhere else I have lived however.

Cheers for providing a balanced opinion. I'm with you on this one.

I personally believe that not drinking enough is not the primary cause of a bad shed. I only change my snakes' water fortnightly, unless it is visibly dirty. They so rarely have a bad shed, that I barely know what it looks like, and they show no signs of dehydration. (I know what to look for, I have been advised by a vet on the matter.)

I don't think it's a problem that people are exploring options for increasing humidity (though they could be thinking more in terms of decreasing humidity loss). If you've experienced multiple bad sheds, you've got to determine why, and humidity is a factor. However, I do agree with pythoninfinite that it seems that many newer keepers are a little too trigger happy on the subject. It is possible to over-compensate for such a problem.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Well Jamie I haven’t kept snake for 50 years yet ( about 30) but I can say for a fact that keeping pythons in Port Hedland I have had to change practice in the way of increasing humidity during winter. Our winters on the Pilbara coast here can extremely dry indeed and I learnt very quickly that unless I adjusted the ventilation slightly to increase humidity for a few months, I had shedding problems despite continuous access to water. I never experienced this problem anywhere else I have lived however.

Ah OK Dave, that's interesting. We've had two extremely dry and prolonged winters here on the mid-north coast too, but no shedding probs. I guess your days are a fair bit warmer up there in the Pilb during winter though. Generally though, keepers in coastal cities, under normal circumstances, don't need to micromanage their enclosures for humidity - I don't know any experienced keepers who do this.

And I agree about the water - some keepers just leave their water dishes in for 24 hrs once a week - a good plan I reckon, stops access to stagnant water, and they don't need any more water than that (it's far more than they'd get in the six summer months in the bush in southern Australia).

Jamie

 

[PilbaraPythons]

I should point out though that it still comes down to a not so adequately designed caging system. After all its seldom that I have ever seen a snake with a problem shed in the wild ( one pygmy python in 9 years ). In my case I probably could have less ventilation all year but its a bit hard when using not so large tubs in a rack. So as I said it is a housing issue at the end of the day.

 

[cement]

Also, just to add my 5c worth. Its the heat source not the venting that causes the difference in humidity in a cage and the ambient.
For example, Ceramic heat emitters. They burn very hot and have to be caged. The surface of these can be that hot that the air in direct contact with the che has absolutely no moisture content. This in turn causes the moist air to be drawn in to that space and drying out the cage. With plenty of ventilation you will get more airflow through the cage (Good) with no ventilation (bad).
This is why the lower wattage heat sources, being more gentle (well for me) work better to maintain the same humidity as the ambient. For me it comes back to the heat source.