I didn't say that hybrid breeders were dishonest, I started this thread to talk about what to do with sibs not how to stop jag/hybrid breeding; you really need to learn how to read as you seem to have missed a lot of what is written in this thread. Yes people breeding hybrids is killing part of the hobby because at some point down the track they can muddie up the water and sold as pure. Sorry for being hostile but ignorance and pretending to have half an idea what you are talking about, when clearly you don't understand and have no experience really ticks me.
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They can muddy up the water by being sold as pure? This would only happen if someone along the line is dishonest. I may have been over the top when I accused you of thinking hybrid breeders are dishonest, but the fact remains, someone would have to be dishonest for this concern of yours to become a reality. A hybrid would never make it into a pure line breeders collection unless someone lied to that private breeder and said that the hybrid was pure. I agree with you, this will happen if the current licensing conditions aren't changed so that hybrids can only be registered and sold as hybrids. Through all the dishonesty and apparent "misreading", I think you'll find we're actually agreeing on that. I don't claim to be an expert, but much of what i've talked about is from a moral stand point, something I do have a firm understanding of. Killing all sibs would be the only way to completely ensure that the pure blood lines aren't muddied, but the truth is, it would already be too late for that. I will not see culling as the best option here, purely because of my morals, not because of my understanding or lack there of. I can see and appreciate your concerns, but I think there is always a more peaceful resolution to be found.
What should be done with sibs?
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Rogue5861
Very Well-Known Member
btsmorhps,-
LOL, You really are a number 99 anrnt you mate, (no offence intened of course lol ).
Where did I say they ring and bag these people?. I said that they wont buy animals off them anymore, thats not bagging them its their choice.
You always seem to miss the point im trying to make.
The people that breed jags are contaminating the hobby in OZ no matter what they do with the sibs, plain and simple. Even honest jag breeders are still contaminating the hobby with cross bred rubbish be it jags or sibs. I really thought that alot of them would of known better, unfortunately I was wrong.
Another point I was trying to make that you missed is not that they cant sell the animals but alot of people just wont buy off them any more so its their reputation that has been harmed. Some of these guys had the best reputations in the country but its now in tatters.
I dont know of any purists that have had their reputation shattered in this way.
Hey my reputation leaves alot to be desired but not for selling medically sick animals or cross bred / hybrid rubbish. But because im an obnoxious tosser that says what most people only think. But i can live with that as I dont give a continental what anyone thinks of me. Hell even I think im an obnoxious tosser. lol.
If I was selling unhealthy animals and cross bred crap I probally would mind.
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btsmorhps,-
Come on then mate spit it out, whats the real reason they what my animals and who are these people that you so boldly speak of. lol
Ive only sold a small handfull of hypos this season, Ive had dozens of people ring me wanting them but only a very select few got them.
LOL, You really are a number 99 anrnt you mate, (no offence intened of course lol ).
Where did I say they ring and bag these people?. I said that they wont buy animals off them anymore, thats not bagging them its their choice.
You always seem to miss the point im trying to make.
The people that breed jags are contaminating the hobby in OZ no matter what they do with the sibs, plain and simple. Even honest jag breeders are still contaminating the hobby with cross bred rubbish be it jags or sibs. I really thought that alot of them would of known better, unfortunately I was wrong.
Another point I was trying to make that you missed is not that they cant sell the animals but alot of people just wont buy off them any more so its their reputation that has been harmed. Some of these guys had the best reputations in the country but its now in tatters.
I dont know of any purists that have had their reputation shattered in this way.
Hey my reputation leaves alot to be desired but not for selling medically sick animals or cross bred / hybrid rubbish. But because im an obnoxious tosser that says what most people only think. But i can live with that as I dont give a continental what anyone thinks of me. Hell even I think im an obnoxious tosser. lol.
If I was selling unhealthy animals and cross bred crap I probally would mind.
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btsmorhps,-
Come on then mate spit it out, whats the real reason they what my animals and who are these people that you so boldly speak of. lol
Ive only sold a small handfull of hypos this season, Ive had dozens of people ring me wanting them but only a very select few got them.
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post 92
so you are saying they call you saying '' I hate jags I wont buy any animals of person xyz because they breed jags...'' they only reason they are telling you this is because you are so out spoken against jags and everyone knows that you have told several jag breeders to go stuff themselves when they have tried to get some of your hypo line off you, also publicly said several times that you will not deal with people that have anything to do with jags... surely you can see what they have to gain by getting on your side and putting you off the scent that they will be used to cross with jags.
yes some purist people wont deal with these jag breeders but I highly doubt these people wont want a chance to work with the pure axanthic line to breed it with pure hypos and especially once the albino mcdowelli becomes available.
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Ive had dozens of people ring me wanting them and i havnt told them to get stuffed at all. Ive told them politely, no offence but im sorry no.
Ive only sold a small handfull of them, so if one or two of them have done this, well just proves my point how doddgy and dishonest these sort of people are. just about everyone that i sold them to i know quite well and your really barking up the tree and telling pokies again to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about when in realitiy you dont have a clue.
Ive had good friends ring me laughing and telling me that certain people are ringing them and trying to get them to get some off me to give to them, but its just blown up in their face because as said they just ring me up and have a good laugh about it. Dodgy dodgy jagheads,see this is another reason why the tide is turning and alot of people just dont trust the jagheads. lol.
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Sooner or later they will get them i cant stop that but, but then the pure hypos i produce will be worth 10 times what they would ever get from breeding them with jags. They all ready are. lol.
Ive kept jagheads from getting hold of any for the last couple of generations when they could of made big money with them, but jags are worhtless now so they have missed the boat and im real happy with that. LOL
Ive done what I intended to do so Im happy.
Ive only sold a small handfull of them, so if one or two of them have done this, well just proves my point how doddgy and dishonest these sort of people are. just about everyone that i sold them to i know quite well and your really barking up the tree and telling pokies again to make yourself look like you know what you are talking about when in realitiy you dont have a clue.
Ive had good friends ring me laughing and telling me that certain people are ringing them and trying to get them to get some off me to give to them, but its just blown up in their face because as said they just ring me up and have a good laugh about it. Dodgy dodgy jagheads,see this is another reason why the tide is turning and alot of people just dont trust the jagheads. lol.
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Sooner or later they will get them i cant stop that but, but then the pure hypos i produce will be worth 10 times what they would ever get from breeding them with jags. They all ready are. lol.
Ive kept jagheads from getting hold of any for the last couple of generations when they could of made big money with them, but jags are worhtless now so they have missed the boat and im real happy with that. LOL
Ive done what I intended to do so Im happy.
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as much as you will deny it one of your hypos will be bred to a jag once it is up to size (which looks to be next season) and its really a trivial thing but the fact you are so against it, is what makes it funny..... a patternless orange pepper will still sell for a lot more money then your hypos do and some high end jags are still selling for over 2k so the boat has only sailed for the low end 1st, 2nd crosses....
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Larks
Good to see your comments
I actually see non jag hybrid siblings as a much bigger threat to the industry than jag siblings
IMO its far to late to bother about bashing jag breeders
Far too easy to try to blame them for everything thats happening now; especially when you consider there are a lot more hybrids being bred than just jags
IMO opinion selling them as jag siblings would lessen the value rather than increase it?
Would be interesting to learn why it may increase the sell price?
Apart from telling a buyer that a hybrid sibling is exactly that, have you considered any other ways of avoiding future problems?
You may sell with full disclosure and thats cool
But the paper trail does not permit you put hybrid on it
So for the first buyer its ok because they know its a sibling
But pythons may live 25years and who knows where that snake will end up
I have a feeling your breeding programs involve high end animals??
Ive seen some what I would call fugly design disasters out there, but most of those were just snakes thrown together in the hope of something special with no real planning strategy in place
[my favourite snake just now has one eye, huge attitude, and a face like a sucked in sandshoe]
Paint jobs, NOT just including jags, are here and will never go away
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btsmorhps,-
hahaha, Now i know for sure that you are uninformed, telling pokies or its one of these many hypos out there that are suppoesd to be from my line but is not, as thats impossible, none of this seasons animals will be old enough to be any good.
All the last gen hypos were kept, there are none out there except right here. lol.
Sorry buddy try again.
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Selling jags for over 2k, get real. Anyone who would pay that sort of money for worthless rubbish these days is not right in the head no one would be that stupid. Thats just tall stories mate or a blatant rip off by the breeder to someone that hasnt got a clue. lol.
hahaha, Now i know for sure that you are uninformed, telling pokies or its one of these many hypos out there that are suppoesd to be from my line but is not, as thats impossible, none of this seasons animals will be old enough to be any good.
All the last gen hypos were kept, there are none out there except right here. lol.
Sorry buddy try again.
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Selling jags for over 2k, get real. Anyone who would pay that sort of money for worthless rubbish these days is not right in the head no one would be that stupid. Thats just tall stories mate or a blatant rip off by the breeder to someone that hasnt got a clue. lol.
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
cement
Very Well-Known Member
The mail I get, and I'll be honest, I don't wander in jag breeder circles, is that there are many pure locality species projects that are just about to come to fruition here. Many of these animals will get the "oh, theres jag blood in there" from the uninformed.
The very worst thing to hear when you have put in years of effort to produce red hot looking animals. The answer is simple, those that don't breed, and have never bred, or had anything to do with jags or hybrid crossing, will come with good recommendation from the trusted and honest breeders. Unfortunatly for some, if you have jag in your collection there will always be doubt.
I'm not putting ****ake on anyone, just reflecting on past, present and future!
AS to this site being pro purist, I beg to differ. I have been banned many times in the past for voicing my opinions on jags, but since a few changes, this site has now come back into balance regarding the jag/hybrid and purist split.
The very worst thing to hear when you have put in years of effort to produce red hot looking animals. The answer is simple, those that don't breed, and have never bred, or had anything to do with jags or hybrid crossing, will come with good recommendation from the trusted and honest breeders. Unfortunatly for some, if you have jag in your collection there will always be doubt.
I'm not putting ****ake on anyone, just reflecting on past, present and future!
AS to this site being pro purist, I beg to differ. I have been banned many times in the past for voicing my opinions on jags, but since a few changes, this site has now come back into balance regarding the jag/hybrid and purist split.
RedFox
Very Well-Known Member
I have being watching this thread for a while and have decided to add my 2c. Keep in mind I am a complete newbie, know very few people who own reptile let alone in 'the industry' and everything I say, whether right or wrong is my own opinion.
I assume this thread was started around the same time as the bredli x albino Darwin one, where the possibility of not being able to sell/give away all the offspring would have being highly plausable.
I don't believe that breeders of hybrids should be forced into culling the unwanted hatchies. By enforcing this there is the possibility of people not willing to cull to lie about the heritage of these hatchies, whether jag, zebra or mixes subspecies.
An example of forced euthanising not always have the best effect os if we look at pure bred Dalmatians. It is written into their code of ethics that all deaf puppies must be either kept by the breeder or humanely put down. This has caused quite a few breeders to not register their dogs, or lie about getting them put down, which in turn can create its own problems.
To be honest I think the impact of hybrids on the hobby has being a bit exaggerated in this thread. The high end hybrids tend to be sold to other milkshake or jag breeders or kept by the original breeders, of they aren't culled. It is more the low end and middle hybrids that could cause a problem. A lot of which are bred by newbies or people who are breeding for the sake of it and haven't really thought about the results. A lot of these would be sold to newbies, who may just want a pet snake. There seem to be a decreasing amount of people who just want pets, but that is for another thread. The rest will either be kept by the original breeder, or culled.
So to my understanding the problem is when the newbie with the hybrid no longer wants it and gives or sells it to someone else, that person then no longer wants it and sell/gives it away. Somewhere along the line someone has claimed it as 'pure' and eventually someone buys this animal thinking it is pure and breeds it and sells the hatchlings as pure.
I guess my issue with the above is, those that are 'proper purist' will only buy animals from a few select people where the animals heritage can be traced back to wild caught animals. This ensures that there will.always be pure animals available for those that want them.
Secondly as these animals are pets with very few having a huge amount of conservational value what does it really matter of someone owns a 90 odd % jungle and sells that hatchlings as pure.
From most the threads on here that are "what is my snake it was sold as xxx but my friend thinks it is yyy?", these were posted by newbies.
That being said I think there should be a way to put hybrids on license so these animals are now and in the future sold as exactly what they are.
I also think that hybrids, including jag sibs should be able to be sold, after being humanely euthanized as food for other animals so there is no waste. Jags and other hybrids are always going to be bred so why can't they be bred for dual purposes. The pretty animals sold into the pet industry and the unwanted animals sold into the pet food industry.
I assume this thread was started around the same time as the bredli x albino Darwin one, where the possibility of not being able to sell/give away all the offspring would have being highly plausable.
I don't believe that breeders of hybrids should be forced into culling the unwanted hatchies. By enforcing this there is the possibility of people not willing to cull to lie about the heritage of these hatchies, whether jag, zebra or mixes subspecies.
An example of forced euthanising not always have the best effect os if we look at pure bred Dalmatians. It is written into their code of ethics that all deaf puppies must be either kept by the breeder or humanely put down. This has caused quite a few breeders to not register their dogs, or lie about getting them put down, which in turn can create its own problems.
To be honest I think the impact of hybrids on the hobby has being a bit exaggerated in this thread. The high end hybrids tend to be sold to other milkshake or jag breeders or kept by the original breeders, of they aren't culled. It is more the low end and middle hybrids that could cause a problem. A lot of which are bred by newbies or people who are breeding for the sake of it and haven't really thought about the results. A lot of these would be sold to newbies, who may just want a pet snake. There seem to be a decreasing amount of people who just want pets, but that is for another thread. The rest will either be kept by the original breeder, or culled.
So to my understanding the problem is when the newbie with the hybrid no longer wants it and gives or sells it to someone else, that person then no longer wants it and sell/gives it away. Somewhere along the line someone has claimed it as 'pure' and eventually someone buys this animal thinking it is pure and breeds it and sells the hatchlings as pure.
I guess my issue with the above is, those that are 'proper purist' will only buy animals from a few select people where the animals heritage can be traced back to wild caught animals. This ensures that there will.always be pure animals available for those that want them.
Secondly as these animals are pets with very few having a huge amount of conservational value what does it really matter of someone owns a 90 odd % jungle and sells that hatchlings as pure.
From most the threads on here that are "what is my snake it was sold as xxx but my friend thinks it is yyy?", these were posted by newbies.
That being said I think there should be a way to put hybrids on license so these animals are now and in the future sold as exactly what they are.
I also think that hybrids, including jag sibs should be able to be sold, after being humanely euthanized as food for other animals so there is no waste. Jags and other hybrids are always going to be bred so why can't they be bred for dual purposes. The pretty animals sold into the pet industry and the unwanted animals sold into the pet food industry.
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you do know that Morelia's can breed at 18months don't you? and there are still high quality jags selling for over 2k but of course you know better lol.... I will happily post photos next seasons patternless op jag after they hatch and shed with the paper work showing it came directly from you lol anyway ill leave you guys bash on the jags....
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btsmorhps,-
The odd male will breed at that age, but long term they get stuffed by pumping that quick anyway, let him stuff his animal, thats his loss.
There is only one person that i had slight doughts about that got any this season and I dought he will any way. His name will be mud if he does and he will certainly regret his dishonesty if he does anyway. Trust me on that one.
The other few people that have them will only breed them with coastals that is confirmed.
A patternless orange pepper, lol, jungle x hypo x jag crossed back to a hypo, lol the mix just keeps getting worse. Now thats funny.
Why would you bother when these hypos can produce way better looking animals that are 100% pure. And dare i say patternless in the close future, now thats a valuable snake.
As said it will happen one day, but these pure animals will be much more outstanding and pure.
Ive kept all the best ones so lets just see what happens eh. lol
The odd male will breed at that age, but long term they get stuffed by pumping that quick anyway, let him stuff his animal, thats his loss.
There is only one person that i had slight doughts about that got any this season and I dought he will any way. His name will be mud if he does and he will certainly regret his dishonesty if he does anyway. Trust me on that one.
The other few people that have them will only breed them with coastals that is confirmed.
A patternless orange pepper, lol, jungle x hypo x jag crossed back to a hypo, lol the mix just keeps getting worse. Now thats funny.
Why would you bother when these hypos can produce way better looking animals that are 100% pure. And dare i say patternless in the close future, now thats a valuable snake.
As said it will happen one day, but these pure animals will be much more outstanding and pure.
Ive kept all the best ones so lets just see what happens eh. lol
Serpent_Gazeux
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I'll only breed my Trueblue hypo back to another Trueblue hypo.
And that's if I breed her at all.
And that's if I breed her at all.
btsmorphs,-
Just been contacted by the only person I wasnt 100% sure of and sorry, but the animal your talking about can not be from my line. Sounds like you have been led up the garden path again mate. Must be one of these dozens of hypos out there that are supposed to be from my line but are not.
Who is it, if your so adament about this, let us all know. lol.
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lol, Every one that has got hypos off me this season, ( all three ), except close friends have just contacted me to confirm that they will remain pure coastal. Sorry btsmorphs, hate to burst your bubble.
Just been contacted by the only person I wasnt 100% sure of and sorry, but the animal your talking about can not be from my line. Sounds like you have been led up the garden path again mate. Must be one of these dozens of hypos out there that are supposed to be from my line but are not.
Who is it, if your so adament about this, let us all know. lol.
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lol, Every one that has got hypos off me this season, ( all three ), except close friends have just contacted me to confirm that they will remain pure coastal. Sorry btsmorphs, hate to burst your bubble.
onimocnhoj
Well-Known Member
I don't think the food option is viable with unwanted/unhealthy jag siblings or any euthanised reptile.
Personally, I would not risk the use of euthanised siblings for reptile fodder. Retroviruses and other nasties can tolerate freezing temperatures for prolonged periods and could prove to be a fatal snack for your python if present.
You would be taking a similar amount of risk bringing new reptiles into a collection without any quarantine measures.
Your Aspidites species would not appreciate the little ray of 'Sunshine' that could be unwillingly added to their evening meal :shock:
Just remember..
I - insufficient
B - breakfast
D - diet
or
O - over
P - priced
M - Morelia
V - veal.
This is by no means an attack on jag breeders. I am attacking the use of all reptiles as fodder for the quarantine principle. The acronyms are just for fun
.
Waste not want not..
Personally, I would not risk the use of euthanised siblings for reptile fodder. Retroviruses and other nasties can tolerate freezing temperatures for prolonged periods and could prove to be a fatal snack for your python if present.
You would be taking a similar amount of risk bringing new reptiles into a collection without any quarantine measures.
Your Aspidites species would not appreciate the little ray of 'Sunshine' that could be unwillingly added to their evening meal :shock:
Just remember..
I - insufficient
B - breakfast
D - diet
or
O - over
P - priced
M - Morelia
V - veal.
This is by no means an attack on jag breeders. I am attacking the use of all reptiles as fodder for the quarantine principle. The acronyms are just for fun
. Waste not want not..
PilbaraPythons
Very Well-Known Member
There is no doubt that people who breed jags and breed them with all Morelia do loose creditability to some degree even it is un fairly deserved by the truly honest. For example I would never buy any jungle proclaimed to be pure off anyone who also bred jags, I would always have a suspicion about what I was really buying. I am certain I am not the only one out there thinking this. Its just the way it is unfortunately.
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