advice needed re children's python in poor condition

[WonSecCol]

hi, new member so hope I'm not duplicating previous entry or committing any faux pas
we have just inherited a children's python from a student who had lost interest in it
it's roughly 1/2 meter long and at its thickest only about the size of my thumb
its skin moves a lot, like it's too big for the body underneath (I'm used to my python at home having firm skin) the student who gave it to us said it had just been fed, but I've heard since that he'd been neglecting it; is this a sign of malnourishment? It's been fed pinky mice which I think are too small for it
student also said he didn't handle the snake because it was very snappy, however I've found it extremely placid
it's tongue is dull brown, I'm used to my carpet python's bright blue, is this another problem?
it came covered (apart from head - eyes are fine - and a couple of patches) in unshed skin
I've been soaking and rubbing off, the tail peeled off nicely from a sloughed patch, but the rest I'm having to remove backwards as I can't get it started from the front - this morning after another hour or so soaking I tried again to get a start at the neck and think I've hurt it further - dead skin lifted however l think it took a live scale with it as I saw a spot of white which I thought might be flesh
snake didn't flinch & I smoothed the skin back down
I had planned to remove the old skin (still about 1/2 covered) before feeding it, but have decided to stop soaking and have just fed it the last 2 pinky mice - student said it was very snappy when feeding but it took the mice quite gently

I'm hoping someone can give me advice on how much of the above is normal, and on how to treat the problems - given it's a 3hr round trip to specialist reptile vet I'd like to handle it myself if at all possible
oh, and if anyone can give me some idea of how old it's likely to be that'd be nice too!
many thanks

 

[Junglejags]

hi, new member so hope I'm not duplicating previous entry or committing any faux pas
we have just inherited a children's python from a student who had lost interest in it
it's roughly 1/2 meter long and at its thickest only about the size of my thumb
its skin moves a lot, like it's too big for the body underneath (I'm used to my python at home having firm skin) the student who gave it to us said it had just been fed, but I've heard since that he'd been neglecting it; is this a sign of malnourishment? It's been fed pinky mice which I think are too small for it
student also said he didn't handle the snake because it was very snappy, however I've found it extremely placid
it's tongue is dull brown, I'm used to my carpet python's bright blue, is this another problem?
it came covered (apart from head - eyes are fine - and a couple of patches) in unshed skin
I've been soaking and rubbing off, the tail peeled off nicely from a sloughed patch, but the rest I'm having to remove backwards as I can't get it started from the front - this morning after another hour or so soaking I tried again to get a start at the neck and think I've hurt it further - dead skin lifted however l think it took a live scale with it as I saw a spot of white which I thought might be flesh
snake didn't flinch & I smoothed the skin back down
I had planned to remove the old skin (still about 1/2 covered) before feeding it, but have decided to stop soaking and have just fed it the last 2 pinky mice - student said it was very snappy when feeding but it took the mice quite gently

I'm hoping someone can give me advice on how much of the above is normal, and on how to treat the problems - given it's a 3hr round trip to specialist reptile vet I'd like to handle it myself if at all possible
oh, and if anyone can give me some idea of how old it's likely to be that'd be nice too!
many thanks

Really need to post photos if you want accurate advice of any problems.

 

[PythonLegs]

Needs to have a decent feed more than anything, there is far less nutritious content in pinkies as they lack fur and hard bone...at that size it'll smash at least a sub adult mouse no problem. To me initially with no picture it just sounds like an underfed, uncared for snake that hasnt had any chance of excersize..snakes lose muscle tone just like everyone else. The fact t's feeding tells me theres nothing massively wrong with it.. or its more worried about eating than anything that Is wrong with it.
No way of knowing how old it is, probably slow growing due to poor of diet.

 

[WonSecCol]

brilliant PythonLegs, thanks for the help - I was going to get fuzzys next & feed as many as it'll take at a sitting, then work up, or do you think I should head straight to the sub adult?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Head straight for the half-grown mice WSC, and probably leave the stuck shed if it's difficult to remove. Make sure the animal has fresh water fairly often until it sheds again, which may happen sooner rather than later if the snake has been underfed and has a skin problem (skin problems and wounds tend to accelerate the shedding cycles until they're fully healed).

Jamie

 

[Ramy]

If you have a reasonable set of kitchen scales, I'd say it's meals should be 10-15% of it's body weight every 10-14 days. Smaller for weekly meals. (weighing it will allow you to monitor it's condition, too.) If you think it's about as thick as your thumb, it shouldn't have a hard time swallowing a meal that thick.

The loose skin is most likely a sign of losing weight or dehydration. Dehydration would also explain if it's uncharacteristically docile and doesn't struggle against you rubbing skin loose. Keeping the animal stress free, fed and providing clean water should help. It might be worth taking it to a vet, they should be able to tell you what to look out for (and may want to give it some fluids).

It sounds like the unshed skin might take a few attempts to remove, please be patient with it. Best to take longer than to hurt it. Also, be aware that stress may lead to it regurgitating it's food. Avoid handling it soon after feeding.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

If you have a reasonable set of kitchen scales, I'd say it's meals should be 10-15% of it's body weight every 10-14 days. Smaller for weekly meals. (weighing it will allow you to monitor it's condition, too.) If you think it's about as thick as your thumb, it shouldn't have a hard time swallowing a meal that thick.

The loose skin is most likely a sign of losing weight or dehydration. Dehydration would also explain if it's uncharacteristically docile and doesn't struggle against you rubbing skin loose. Keeping the animal stress free, fed and providing clean water should help. It might be worth taking it to a vet, they should be able to tell you what to look out for (and may want to give it some fluids).

It sounds like the unshed skin might take a few attempts to remove, please be patient with it. Best to take longer than to hurt it. Also, be aware that stress may lead to it regurgitating it's food. Avoid handling it soon after feeding.

There's no need to be formulaic about feeding, just select a food item that's about the same thickness as the body - weight doesn't matter. Pinky mice are something that a python would rarely, if ever, encounter in the wild. They don't hunt down burrows and under rocks & logs the way elapids do. They are ambush predators, and will lie in wait for a passing lizard (if the snake is small) or mouse, bird or something of suitable size. They don't weigh them before striking.

I wouldn't attempt to remove the skin if it's proving difficult, you risk damaging the underlying layers. Be patient and wait till it sheds and see how it goes then.

Jamie

 

[PythonLegs]

Agreed, after you feed you might also want to up the humidity, just by adding an extra waterbowl near a heat source.

 

[Peter33]

my Childrens is 70 cm, but nowhere near as thick as my thumb.
I had another that thick, but she was a few years old, and nearly a metre.
The general wisdom in my part of the world is that rats have a higher proportion of protein than mice, and snakes need protein.
So, you might start on pinkie mice, then move upto pinkie rats, then larger rats, but never go back to mice again.
If it's eating and well-behaved, then I wouldn't worry too much.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Your snake is not going to suffer in the slightest if it lives its life eating only mice. Your would not be able to pick the difference between either if a mouse-eater and a rat-eater were compared. Actually adult mice are probably a better bet in the long run - fully calcified bones and well-developed internal organs are likely to be richer in nutrients than a partly developed rat. And the fur is an important part of the food item too - it's not digested but adds bulk to the stool.

I would go all the way up to large adult mice before moving to weaner rats (if that ever became necessary), pinky rats (like pinky mice) are just blobs of protoplasm.

Jamie

 

[wokka]

If you have a reasonable set of kitchen scales, I'd say it's meals should be 10-15% of it's body weight every 10-14 days. Smaller for weekly meals. (weighing it will allow you to monitor it's condition, too.) If you think it's about as thick as your thumb, it shouldn't have a hard time swallowing a meal that thick.

The loose skin is most likely a sign of losing weight or dehydration. Dehydration would also explain if it's uncharacteristically docile and doesn't struggle against you rubbing skin loose. Keeping the animal stress free, fed and providing clean water should help. It might be worth taking it to a vet, they should be able to tell you what to look out for (and may want to give it some fluids).

It sounds like the unshed skin might take a few attempts to remove, please be patient with it. Best to take longer than to hurt it. Also, be aware that stress may lead to it regurgitating it's food. Avoid handling it soon after feeding.

10-15% of bodyweight every 10-14 days will not provide much more nutrition than maintanence. I f the animal is malnurished I would feed weaner mice to refusal which will end up closer to 30% of boyweight, but more importantly feed it something with fur bone and guts- not a pinky.

- - - Updated - - -

The general wisdom in my part of the world is that rats have a higher proportion of protein than mice, and snakes need protein.
So, you might start on pinkie mice, then move upto pinkie rats, then larger rats, but never go back to mice again.
.

I am not aware of any evidence that rats are higher protein than mice or that proportion of protein is particularly important with snakes. The reason most keepers feed whole food items to snakes is that they are nutritionally balanced, however it is generally accepted that very young food items ,like pinkies lack fiber and are very high in water so often dont provide enough nutrition relative to weight as compared to food items of greater maturity.

 

[Ramy]

10-15% of bodyweight every 10-14 days will not provide much more nutrition than maintanence. If the animal is malnurished I would feed weaner mice to refusal which will end up closer to 30% of boyweight, but more importantly feed it something with fur bone and guts- not a pinky.

Fair enough. I know my snakes have gained weight on 10% fortnightly. That's mostly adult snakes, though. For yearlings, I've seen considerable growth on 20% fortnightly. While they can take 30% no problems, I tend to feed such large meals as the exception rather than the rule. I guess it depends on how fast you want it to grow.

BTW, I know that being forumlaic is unnecessary. Because I weigh my snakes regularly, the % is just something I've noticed. Since new keepers often seem to be feeding small sized rats to young snakes (concerned they won't be able to swallow something bigger), I find it a reasonable way of pointing out just how big a meal can be. Also, I think weighing a malnourished snake regularly is a valuable way of making sure it's growing.

 

[andynic07]

Fair enough. I know my snakes have gained weight on 10% fortnightly. That's mostly adult snakes, though. For yearlings, I've seen considerable growth on 20% fortnightly. While they can take 30% no problems, I tend to feed such large meals as the exception rather than the rule. I guess it depends on how fast you want it to grow.

BTW, I know that being forumlaic is unnecessary. Because I weigh my snakes regularly, the % is just something I've noticed. Since new keepers often seem to be feeding small sized rats to young snakes (concerned they won't be able to swallow something bigger), I find it a reasonable way of pointing out just how big a meal can be. Also, I think weighing a malnourished snake regularly is a valuable way of making sure it's growing.

I am with you with using weight as a guide. Some people judge things better than others and I found it best as a new snake keeper to weigh my snake and the food item. I was pretty strict at first but have learnt with time that it is ok to give it a feed on the large size some feeds and on the small size other feeds. I also learnt to look at the snake and if it wasn't growing or getting a little plump then I would adjust the feeds. You could ask 5 different people to give you an estimate on the length of a piece of string and not only will you get 5 different answers you will more than likely get one high and one low answer with 3 being roughly right.