Geographic areas and overlaps

[ronhalling]

Carrying on from recent discussion about Intergrades and overlapping Geographic areas i am still a bit confused as to how they give species their names, so hopefully Norm will chime in here with his particular liking for Intergrades. So here is the quandrey...as i believe it to be the Geographic range for Diamond Pythons is accepted as being roughly the Vic border to around Newcastle, and the Geographic range for Coastal Carpet Pythons is roughly Cairns to around Tweed heads, so everything in between is accepted as the Intergrade Zone, am i roughly right so far??....from reading other peoples posts including my own it has been said there have been animals North of Newcastle that look more like Diamonds than those down South and conversely people have also seen animals South of Tweed Heads that look more like Coastals than those North of the Queensland border, what about all the animals in the Intergrade Zone......people see posts in the forum here of an animal where the OP has posted it to be a Diamond or a Coastal and have to tell the OP it is not actually what they think it is that it is probably an Intergrade, so then why did they have to make this zone without doing something about the names of the snakes i.e those South of Newcastle as Morelia Spilota Spilota (Diamond) those North of Tweed Heads Morelia Spilota McDowelli (Coastal) and those in the Intergrade Zone as Morelia Spilota Intergradas (Intergrade) IMO it would stop a lot of the confusion. (LOL i confused myself typing it) Would like to see the opinions of those who might actually know something about it. .........................Ron

 

[Norm]

Hey Ron, you sucked me in! I don`t do any field herping although I would very much like to, time with a young family makes it a bit hard and I`m lazy! Those that do get out in the field would be much better qualified to add to this thread than me but I would say the northern border for intergrades is more commonly stated as Coffs Harbour rather than Tweed Heads but your on the right track.
I don`t like the name intergrade, but I use it because its the most commonly used term. I actually suggested a couple of years ago that a different name would be a better option. Maybe Port Mac Carpet, Northern diamond something along those lines. I think if we know the locality of our intergrades we should use that name, e.g. I have two that decended from Fern Bay and I call them "fern bay diamonds/intergrades" or "port stephens diamonds/intergrades". I have others though that I don't know the locality of and I just call these Intergrades and sell the hatchies as such.
Its a fascinating subject for me ever since I bought a port stephens diamond and after posting pics was told that's not a diamond, its a coastal, cross or intergrade at best. one person even told me it was a Bredli!

 

[Blinky]

I have found pure diamonds as far as 2 hours North of Newcastle. Never herped any higher tbh.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

I have found pure diamonds as far as 2 hours North of Newcastle. Never herped any higher tbh.

2 hours north of Newy would put you around Taree, so the question automatically has to be "what do YOU call a "pure Diamond?""

Ron, the distribution of these things is more of a continuum rather than one of defined geographic boundaries, but a 300km overlap is probably not something you'd actually find, such as a "pure" Diamond as far north as Taree. The naming of subspecies these days is far more involved than just a consideration of the appearance - pattern, colour etc... - it has much more to do with genetics and of course these studies are becoming more sophisticated all the time. Taxonomists are unlikely to be out of work at any time in the forseeable future, given the constant development of new and more sophisticated techniques.

Jamie

 

[Blinky]

2 hours north of Newy would put you around Taree, so the question automatically has to be "what do YOU call a "pure Diamond?""

Ron, the distribution of these things is more of a continuum rather than one of defined geographic boundaries, but a 300km overlap is probably not something you'd actually find, such as a "pure" Diamond as far north as Taree. The naming of subspecies these days is far more involved than just a consideration of the appearance - pattern, colour etc... - it has much more to do with genetics and of course these studies are becoming more sophisticated all the time. Taxonomists are unlikely to be out of work at any time in the forseeable future, given the constant development of new and more sophisticated techniques.

Jamie

Well more realistically 30 minutes before Taree where it was found. Absolutely no sign of Coastal in it and was exactly the same as the ones I have seen here a few times on the Central Coast. Going off DNA I would have no idea as I do not know much about that side of things, I leave it to the experts haha.

 

[TrueBlue]

Bigguy from this site is the man to ask about the intergrade zone for diamonds and carpets. Hes been there and done that over many many years. His knowledge on this subject is second to none in the country. I belive his word is gospel on this subject.

There are other intergrades of different species in the country, take the platinum macs for example, belive it or not they are actually a natural intergade form of mac/stimmie, found in an area on the western slopes of the great divide in north qld.

 

[ronhalling]

Oh God TB don't add more confusion to my already addled mind lol .....................................Ron

- - - Updated - - -

2 hours north of Newy would put you around Taree, so the question automatically has to be "what do YOU call a "pure Diamond?""

Ron, the distribution of these things is more of a continuum rather than one of defined geographic boundaries, but a 300km overlap is probably not something you'd actually find, such as a "pure" Diamond as far north as Taree. The naming of subspecies these days is far more involved than just a consideration of the appearance - pattern, colour etc... - it has much more to do with genetics and of course these studies are becoming more sophisticated all the time. Taxonomists are unlikely to be out of work at any time in the forseeable future, given the constant development of new and more sophisticated techniques.

Jamie

Well i wish the Genetisists would close the book on the intergrade issue soon so my big girl can be rid of her identity crisis, if she gets any worse i will have to put her on an antidepressant. ............................................Ron

 

[$NaKe PiMp]

they are all genetically the exact same animal,this is not really a taxonomy mystery or worth any further debate

 

[Pythoninfinite]

they are all genetically the exact same animal,this is not really a taxonomy mystery or worth any further debate

No further debate... I wish !

Ron, the crisis is entirely yours matey... !

Jamie

 

[Klaery]

they are all genetically the exact same animal,this is not really a taxonomy mystery or worth any further debate

This. I am a locality purist at heart, but the subspecies stuff is rubbish. Even alot of the species stuff is on shaky ground (rainbowfish keepers look out). What you are seeing is normal old variation across a species' range. The 'intergrade zone' is just where an imaginary line was drawn by splitters once upon a time.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

This. I am a locality purist at heart, but the subspecies stuff is rubbish. Even alot of the species stuff is on shaky ground (rainbowfish keepers look out). What you are seeing is normal old variation across a species' range. The 'intergrade zone' is just where an imaginary line was drawn by splitters once upon a time.

Yep. All part of an east coast continuum - simply pattern/size/colour variations to accommodate the changing environment from the southern to northern ends of the range. The popular names we use these days are simply part of keeper vernacular and as such don't reflect any science. But as a keeper, I still like to distinguish between what I call "true" Diamonds, Intergrades & Coastals - just for the sake of clarity (haha!) here !

Jamie

 

[hulloosenator]

i dont think anyone can give you a true answer ...... just their opinion , which will cause lots of arguments on here.
i have never seen any DNA results or any proof that what is called an intergrade - is what they say. I think it is a disgusting word to describe a good looking snake which is in my opinion , a Diamond Python , but looks different to those around where the so called experts live.
And, who knows what really happens in the wild.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

There's "opinion" and then there's science - I know which one I'd sooner believe. And what's "disgusting" about the term "intergrade?" Yours is a weird post hulloosenator - you say "disgusting word to describe a good looking snake which is IN MY OPINION a Diamond Python, but looks different to those around where the so called experts live." What does that all mean? "Intergrade" as a descriptor certainly is not disgusting - it's only a term which more or less describes a snake from a certain region of the NSW coast (and I do live here actually), and makes no judgement as to whether the snake is attractive or otherwise - some are gorgeous, others less so.

Many, many people have a very good idea of "what happens in the wild" as far as regional distributions are concerned.

Jamie

 

[Klaery]

Thats it Jamie. The whole subspecies thing just irks me but before I go further please understand the following is just my opinion/view. Taxonomy is just not an exact science and even species classifications are wishy washy. I mean you can probably indeed determine the difference between these groups using genetics. But you can do that with individuals too. Where is the line drawn? How many differences does something need to be called a species/subspecies.

The species concept doesn’t work. Everything is just a point on the trunk or branch of evolution's continuum. It’s like the question I often think about of how does one describe (give a scientific name to) a dinosaur. I mean unless the fossil is from the point where something went extinct it was just another point along an evolutionary continuum. The more fossils you find along the evolutionary line, the more names you need. That is until you decide to just draw lines of difference between groups and call them “species” and at that point it’s an entirely human construct with no real basis.

In saying that we need a system and the current one is the best one out there.

 

[thomasssss]

here you go ron , this is a post made by bigguy on this subject , as others said he definitely knows his stuff

http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/herp-help-38/faq-intergrade-54862/

 

[Norm]

What scientific name do most keepers/breeders of intergrade record their snakes as? Mine are all recorded as Morelia spilota spilota (diamonds)

 

[TrueBlue]

I think that the term intergrade is actually a great and acurate way of describing animals that live in these buffer zones.
What Bigguy has said in that post, to me is 100% true and couldnt be put in a better way.
Why so many people hate the term intergrade beats the hell out of me.
As Bigguy said in that post and i think sadji has said it before, DNA can and will find differences bettween these animals. Only slightly now but as DNA testing for replites is more refind over the comming years i think that it will prove all this with out a dought.

 

[Norm]

The reason I don't like the term intergrade is because a lot of keepers don`t understand what it means despite excellent explanations such as Biguys. I sold a clutch of intergrade hatchys this year and had a hell of a lot of people asking what they were crossed with. Theres a small percentage of keepers that understand the term and accept them as, for want of a better word, "pure" but still a lot that think intergrade means cross.

 

[TrueBlue]

I hear what your saying Norm, but lets face it alot of people are confused every morning they wake up just trying to get dressed. lol. No offence to anyone of course.

 

[ronhalling]

The Post Bigguy made as well as all the comments i got and get from people when they see pics of or in person our big girl is the reason i originally made this Thread, I did not make it as a platform or soapbox for anyone to climb up on and express personal opinions about other peoples thoughts on the matter. Bigguy makes some very pointed facts about Intergrades and the (so called) Intergrade zone but it further compounds confusion about the whole Taxonomy of the Coastal/Diamond naming system, I have again been in contact with the breeder from whence our big girl came from and he refuses point blank to even entertain the name Intergrade and all his prodgeny carry the name M.S. McDowelli and always will unless DNA evidence actually shows a distinct difference between what he breeds and what is termed an Intergrade. Norm sells and describes his Hatchies as Intergrades and has them on record as M.S.Spilotta, so if another breeder here in Port Macquarie breeds and sell his as Port Macquarie Coastals but puts them on record as M.S McDowelli who is right??, somewhere along the Coast a Taxanomical line has to be drawn in the sand and a proper name has to be given these animals. I am not trying to stir up arguements or try and say he/she is wrong, but a quarom of sorts would be nice. ...............................Ron