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junglejugs

I am merely offering my opinion in this discussion.

It is not my business to devulge what other people do with their animals

Cheers
Sandee :)
So you don't know or have had any experience with jags and these "major" neuro problems that are so bad they have to be put down? Why comment saying someone should get one because it will get neuro and have to be put.down then? Maybe you should only comment on thing you have personal experience with and let people make up their own opinions.
 
Mods seem to close down jag threads so maybe we should start an actual JAG thread for people to post pics and questions.. And would be nice if the haters stay out and stick to there own threads.... I enjoy getting experience from all snakes and so should others be allowed without all the bickering

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PLEASE!!!!!

Its called Morelia Milkshakes and it's been around for a while
http://www.aussiepythons.com/forum/general-reptile-discussion-42/morph-morelia-milkshakes-162677/
 
There is a snake on facebook that is bred from a jag and the breeder/owner firstly thought that it was a sib but the colours and patterns developed and now they are unsure what it is until they have proof. Which I would assume would either be showing signs of neuro or breeding it to test to see if it has the jag gene. This is also someone who has dealt with a lot of jags and they are unsure.
 
Thanks for all the replies! I read on here about neuro movements and heavy breathing. Let's put aside the debate about whether they do or don't have it, I'm interested to know the signs of a neuro jag vs signs of a stressed pure jungle.

For example, I noticed my jungle breathing heavily, or what I would classify as heavily as I could notice obvious body movement, while in his/her tank. Also when I've held him/her there's been a lot of crazy head and body movements.

I don't think that I own a jag (I've posted plenty of pics and no one's said anything) and just put it down to it being little and me stressing it out, but I'm curious to know.
 
Signs of neuro would include lack of co-ordination and uncontrolled movements. Lawra asked for ways to tell a jag and a non jag a part (eg a jungle), not pro or anti jag comments. There are plenty of those floating around already.

onimocnhoj is right as RP animals develop it will become more difficult to tell a jungle from a hybrid or a pure. Reduced black pigment and a reduced pattern now features of jags and some non jag animals. It all comes down to doing some research and trustung a seller is truthful.
 
can someone please show me a "pure" blooded animal , with flat whitish silver eyes like is shown in the jag i posted earlier
as i said notice how the eyes of that jag appears almost flat and one toned in colour , it doesnt have the same little vein thingys that give it that 3d look that you see in wild type morelia

i only ask as these eyes certainly appear to be a trait of jags , if their not then people will have no problem finding pics of pure animals with them

and as said its the flat toned look that you see in jags im after not another example like the previous jungle put up with a much much darker silver and plenty of detail in the eyes , i think the differences are quite notable
 
thomasssss,

Do you think this lack of "vein thingys" is enough to definitively identify jags from purebred Morelia species? Would you confidently label a jag or purebred's complete lineage purely based on the colour of it's eyes?

How many known jags and/or purebreds have you personally observed with varying eye colour?
What colours do they all come in? If they are silver, how many veins is too many to be a jag?

I simply don't believe there is such a straight forward answer to the identification process. I wish there was..

BREDLIH.JPG

This M. bredli has silver eyes like the first M. cheynei I posted. Both display "vein thingys" mostly due to the fact that these pictures were taken in direct, natural sunlight. Inside, these specimens' eyes are quite flat in colour.

Does your theory apply to siblings as well? If not, how does one identify them?
 
thomasssss,

Do you think this lack of "vein thingys" is enough to definitively identify jags from purebred Morelia species? Would you confidently label a jag or purebred's complete lineage purely based on the colour of it's eyes?

How many known jags and/or purebreds have you personally observed with varying eye colour?
What colours do they all come in? If they are silver, how many veins is too many to be a jag?

I simply don't believe there is such a straight forward answer to the identification process. I wish there was..

View attachment 299447

This M. bredli has silver eyes like the first M. cheynei I posted. Both display "vein thingys" mostly due to the fact that these pictures were taken in direct, natural sunlight. Inside, these specimens' eyes are quite flat in colour.

Does your theory apply to siblings as well? If not, how does one identify them?

I agree, however you're banned from posting pictures of that beautiful animal on here where I can see it from now on. :p
 
So you don't know or have had any experience with jags and these "major" neuro problems that are so bad they have to be put down? Why comment saying someone should get one because it will get neuro and have to be put.down then? Maybe you should only comment on thing you have personal experience with and let people make up their own opinions.

Having seen several thousand jags of all sizes in Europe Asia and America
Having handled several hundred jags of all sizes in Europe Asia and America
Having witnessed gorgeous jags that had very bad neuro
Having talked directly with many breeders who have now walked away from jags

Is that qualified enough to comment?

These are the FACTS
All Jags have neuro
Some display little or no signs of neuro
If never stressed out by handling or breeding some will live seemingly perfect lives as display animals
Some will display signs of neuro when excited such as at breeding or feeding time
Some will display signs of neuro as they age and in those cases the neuro gets progressively worse
Some display bad signs of neuro from birth

In the last 2 cases owners have most definitely put to sleep their animals because they couldnt watch them doing this all the time

Junglejags
Any time you like I will drop around and within 30 minutes prove to you that any jags neuro can be made worse very easily
You can choose the jags ok
Then we can do exactly the same thing to other morelia with no side effects showing afterwards

Jags have their place in the market
"Prettiness" is required by some keepers
But that 'prettiness' comes at a price if it includes the jag gene
 
Thanks for all the replies! I read on here about neuro movements and heavy breathing. Let's put aside the debate about whether they do or don't have it, I'm interested to know the signs of a neuro jag vs signs of a stressed pure jungle.

For example, I noticed my jungle breathing heavily, or what I would classify as heavily as I could notice obvious body movement, while in his/her tank. Also when I've held him/her there's been a lot of crazy head and body movements.

I don't think that I own a jag (I've posted plenty of pics and no one's said anything) and just put it down to it being little and me stressing it out, but I'm curious to know.

Every snake will breathe with more noticeable speed just with handling or being taken outside and put in the open. It has nothing to do with the neuro effects of the jaguarararararar python gene in your ccccccase.
 
Every snake will breathe with more noticeable speed just with handling or being taken outside and put in the open. It has nothing to do with the neuro effects of the jaguarararararar python gene in your ccccccase.

Did you actually read the post you quoted???
 
Lawra

When you see a jag display neuro it is very different to to seeing a stressed snake
Although a stressed snake may make rapid movements etc those movements are still coordinated

Neuro is short for neurological
Basically means a problem with connections between what the brain wants to do and what the body actually does

With badly affected jags it is like watching a spastic child
They have some idea of what they want to do
But because of their impairment the coordination is all wrong
They try to eat but continually miss their target
Instead of gliding from point a to point b, they get there in a series of jerky movements
Their heads and upper bodies often twist and turn in movements that are totally unnatural

There are plenty of videos on utube etc

They can be pretty
BUT
What a price to pay??
 
you can find plenty of vids on you tube showing neuro symptoms in jags, some more disturbing than others.
 
Having seen several thousand jags of all sizes in Europe Asia and America
Having handled several hundred jags of all sizes in Europe Asia and America
Having witnessed gorgeous jags that had very bad neuro
Having talked directly with many breeders who have now walked away from jags

Is that qualified enough to comment?

These are the FACTS
All Jags have neuro
Some display little or no signs of neuro
If never stressed out by handling or breeding some will live seemingly perfect lives as display animals
Some will display signs of neuro when excited such as at breeding or feeding time
Some will display signs of neuro as they age and in those cases the neuro gets progressively worse
Some display bad signs of neuro from birth

In the last 2 cases owners have most definitely put to sleep their animals because they couldnt watch them doing this all the time

Junglejags
Any time you like I will drop around and within 30 minutes prove to you that any jags neuro can be made worse very easily
You can choose the jags ok
Then we can do exactly the same thing to other morelia with no side effects showing afterwards

Jags have their place in the market
"Prettiness" is required by some keepers
But that 'prettiness' comes at a price if it includes the jag gene

Can you perhaps drop a few names of breeders that you have visited with personally during your worldwide travels? I keep seeing that many breeders have walked away from jags, I would like to know who these individuals are? Surely they wouldn't mind the rest of us knowing who they are?
 
Can you perhaps drop a few names of breeders that you have visited with personally during your worldwide travels? I keep seeing that many breeders have walked away from jags, I would like to know who these individuals are? Surely they wouldn't mind the rest of us knowing who they are?

I strongly feel that you should PM or start a new thread. This is not what the thread is about and I would really like to keep it on topic.
 
Put some pics up Lawra be easier to help you with what you have.

cheers
Scott
I think Lawra is quite confident that she does not have a jag but was just making the point that some of the typical Jag tell tale signs can sometimes show to some extent in non jag snakes and was after discussion on what other signs may be present.
 
I think Lawra is quite confident that she does not have a jag but was just making the point that some of the typical Jag tell tale signs can sometimes show to some extent in non jag snakes and was after discussion on what other signs may be present.

Thank you Andy :) this is exactly what I meant.

I've looked at YouTube vids: there are varying degrees of neuro signs and I do see a comparison, however the worst cases are very disturbing.

Thank you to everyone for their input, I now have a much greater understanding :)

As a side note, I handled my jungle last night and he/she has calmed down considerably since last handling (about a week and a half ago).
 
Having seen several thousand jags of all sizes in Europe Asia and America
Having handled several hundred jags of all sizes in Europe Asia and America
Having witnessed gorgeous jags that had very bad neuro
Having talked directly with many breeders who have now walked away from jags

Is that qualified enough to comment?

Junglejags
Any time you like I will drop around and within 30 minutes prove to you that any jags neuro can be made worse very easily
You can choose the jags ok
Then we can do exactly the same thing to other morelia with no side effects showing afterwards

this is total nonsense sorry... yes stress can increase the signs of neuro but handling a jag will not turn it into a cork screwing jag that has to be put down. I handle all my jags and from what I see less then 10% show signs on neuro and not all the time either some just when excited like feeding or breeding. Even then it is slight things that most keepers would miss or pass off as nothing.


What % of the thousands of jags you have seen has neuro? and if stress turns these snakes into cork screwing freaks why don't you see it at major expos in the usa where thousands of people are walking past staring at a snake in a clear box under lights where it cant hide? that would be pretty stressful for a snake wouldn't it? even the expos here see a couple of thousand people, so why would a breed bring their prize breeding stock if it was going to stress it out and start cork screwing not only would they not be able to breed with it anymore but wouldn't that also be bad for business?
 
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