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Vixen

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I produced a clutch of Jungle eggs this year that have turned out to have some quite unusual patterning going on. I wanted to make this thread in hopes of gathering some information from those who have produced similar clutches, or others that might have more of an insight.

A bit of a back history. The parents are both pure Palmerston Jungles, the Dam a Krauss line animal and Sire of Montgomery lineage. She layed 15 eggs on the 2nd November, with the first few hatchlings emerging yesterday the 3rd January (day 62). I pipped the rest of the eggs manually and found one hatchling dead - it was situated next to an infertile egg that went mouldy within the first week of incubation, so could have possibly become contaminated from the bad egg. The rest of the 13 hatchlings seem very robust and healthy, one appears quite lethargic though and hasn't come out of the egg yet.

This is the 3rd clutch I've produced from the female, always being paired with the same male. None of her previous clutches showed any signs of this abnormality - they always produce a large portion of striped hatchies of varying degrees (at least 80% of each clutch), but nothing this prominent. Eggs are incubated over vermiculite in a sealed Sistema container - aired once every fortnight and more often when in the last 1-2 weeks prior to hatching.

Incubator was the exact same setup I've used for the past 4 years with no problems, it maintains a steady 30.5 to 31 degrees on a dimming thermostat. As far as I know there was no fluctuations in temperature. Even if a malfunction happened during the night (example a blackout) - the ambient room temperature where the incubator is kept rarely falls below 28 degrees at this time of year. This seems unlikely though as I would have noticed if there was a power outage as the microwave clock resets when this happens, and the thermometer has an alarm if anything over 32 degrees is reached. The only fluctuations are the minor changes when I open and close to check on eggs, but
this is always brief.

I do know of a similar occurrence that happened to a member on here (Ships) - and I remember seeing another clutch (possibly Coastals?) from someone else but for the life of me I can't find the thread. The general consensus is that it's caused by low temperatures during incubation, however as far as I know noone has been able to replicate this?


I'm not at all claiming this is a new morph or anything like that, i'm just interested to find out what's happened here. I'll obviously be keeping some back for a future project, but even if nothing comes from it they will certainly make for some beautiful display animals. :D

Feel free to add any info you might have to this thread, it'd be nice to hear thoughts and opinions. Photo's are below!

~~~~~~~~~~


Some of the newly hatched oddlings:
mu2d.jpg

k7rh.jpg

kc6r.jpg

4ail.jpg

2znf.jpg

pjh8.jpg



Sire at 5 years old:
837m.jpg



Dam in prelay shed at 7 years old:
4sjz.jpg



Eggs:
bmyu.jpg



Example of animals produced in past seasons (varying ages from newly hatched to 12 months):
yfuz.jpg

i74x.jpg

rfle.jpg

jql4.jpg

s1m1.jpg

u2ml.jpg
 
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Looks like a few stunning jungles. Great work vixen they're very pretty. Hopefully they look as good as dad when they grow up.
 
Thanks guys, can't wait to see them after a few sheds! :)

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, I didn't realise I'd written such a ridiculously long essay haha. The info is there for anyone that wants to read it anyhow.
 
IMO looks like an incubator morph, similar to what happen with the ''ghost'' darwins. Environmental factors play a big part in development. I would be looking at your incubator, is it the same one that hatched the hypo looking diamond last season?
 
That's interesting, I haven't heard much about the ghost Darwins in the last few years, were they eventually proven non genetic?

Yes same incubator, but I've never had problems with it at all. The pale Diamond I think was more to do with the fact it's egg was only half the normal size and that it didnt develop fully - I almost threw it away when it was layed but decided to give it a go.

As I mentioned though an alarm goes off if the temp falls or goes above a certain degree, im positive there weren't any major fluctuations.
 
That's interesting, I haven't heard much about the ghost Darwins in the last few years, were they eventually proven non genetic?

Yes same incubator, but I've never had problems with it at all. The pale Diamond I think was more to do with the fact it's egg was only half the normal size and that it didnt develop fully - I almost threw it away when it was layed but decided to give it a go.

As I mentioned though an alarm goes off if the temp falls or goes above a certain degree, im positive there weren't any major fluctuations.

so many different stories with the ghosts even from the person that produced them... I was reading a study a few weeks ago on incubation temps on water python. It showed that the eggs kept at a constant temp hatched sooner, larger and stronger then the eggs cycled between day night cycle. so this shows that the embryo development slows down at low temps. so If the temps dropped at the exact time the pattern/colour should be produced could it ''turn off'' or even just slow down that process from happening? but the temperature still be high enough so that the other stages of the snake continues to develop; meaning the snakes is ready to hatch but the pattern colour hasn't finished its full development. Just my thoughts and probably not worded the best.

- - - Updated - - -

One thing I just thought of, that I have never looked into is. If the embryo development stops or slows down is the full genetic code always still present ie incubation morph or is it possible to turn off this genetic coding through temperature manipulation during embryo development therefor making a new morph/genetic coding fault that the parents do not carry themselves.
 
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Very nice Vixen! They are going to look wicked when high yellow.
 
awesome jungles, would like to see them after a couple of sheds
 
Awesome looking, regardless of how it happened! Can't wait to see the progress shots as they grow up :)
 
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IMO looks like an incubator morph, similar to what happen with the ''ghost'' darwins. Environmental factors play a big part in development. I would be looking at your incubator, is it the same one that hatched the hypo looking diamond last season?

Incubator morph is a good description for this type of enhanced striped patterning ..
 
They look fantastic and very similar pattern elements to those I produced a few years ago. As we've discussed and for the benefit of others that are wondering, the boy of mine, in my avatar, is 3 now and about a kilo. He was a slow starter being a mouse eater, in any case he should be breed ready. He was put to his mother this season just gone and she laid a clutch of 28 infertile eggs. Some were obvious slugs and some looked viable but after a week it was pretty obvious none were fertile.

I never witnessed the boy locked up and he didn't seem to be all that interested in mating at all. Even when introduced to another breeder male briefly in an effort to spur him on, neither of them reacted to each other in any definite way. I'm putting it down at this stage as him being a late bloomer and hopefully will see results from him in 2014. On a side note would be interesting to know where your dam came from as she is very similar looking to mine.
 
Best of luck next season, hopefully he'll be up to the job then, he is absolutely amazing.

As for my female unfortunately I don't know the breeder, she was purchased as a yearling from Pails for Scales back in Dec 2007.
 
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I could try and find out from Roy if he still has the records, but last time I asked it was a firm no due to privacy issues. I do know she hatched out in 2006 though!
 
thats a very interesting group of hatchlings mate.....

the older ones from past clutches have coloured up beautifully

i look forward to up dated pic's of the others as they colour up

cheers shaun
 
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