Sudden death of a jungle

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stary boy

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Hi all, firstly Im back after years, I still recognise a lot of names on here from back in the day and Im sure there are plenty of new faces too.

So I recently bought 5 jungles, 8 months old sold as eating and shedding well. They arrived via AAE and pulling them out there was one who was insanely skinny/thin, saggy skin and unwell looking. What happened next baffled me though. I managed to get him to feed (second offering) with a brained pinky and he scoffed it down but almost immediatly poo'd green. I thought maybe it was due to not feeding for some time (despite what the seller told me) but 24 hours later the little fella is no longer with us. I was really suprised he'd take the food if he was this unwell.

He and another one is just "not quite right" meaning they seem to have problems with theyre tails (scrunching them up in a ball but not holding anything) and tilting heads on the side. I cant really explain it, they are not obviously impared but for someone with a bit of snake experience you can subtly see they are as I put it "not quite right"

After being out of reptiles pretty well for around 7 years Im finding all these hybrids jags and other stuff that just wasnt available not long ago a little disheartening, after all we have the most amazing snakes in the world, why are we trying to change them and at what cost? are these symptoms I described possible neuro issues? From what I can tell things like that seem to be more common in collections now. I dont want to start a hissy fit with the opinionated on here, but get some information in fact form from experienced keepers.

thanks for your time

stary.
 
If they weren't Jags, they shouldn't have neuro. Obviously it isn't the only mutation that causes it but it's the most prevalant. From what I've seen and read about neuro, your symptoms sound nothing like that. I would personally be onto the breeder to "please explain" why they are in much worse condition than advertised.
If the snake was skinny with saggy skin, wouldn't it have been better to offer water before food, especially after being transported in possibly hot and almost definitely dry, air conditioning?
 
Sorry to be confusing I got a bit on a tangent there and off topic with the hybrids jags etc, yeah pure jungles, cheers saximus, I did have water in with him but didnt notice him drinking while i was around. Its a shame but he was terribly undersized and lethargic so when he ate I thought great he'll come good... I always thought if theyre really crook they will refuse food which is why Im so suprised he ate. Anyway I spose it comes down to its all guesses without an autopsy
 
Yeah it sucks and hindsight is always 20/20. Anyway sorry for your loss. Hopefully the others power on
 
Sorry for your loss. Can't add much to help with your question, but I have to agree with you on the wonderful diversity we have in Australia, not only with snakes, but reptiles in general. I too don't want to start a long drawn-out debate, but why would you want to cross species when we are so fortunate to have what we do.
 
From the symptoms it isnt neuro
Neuro affects the motor system
Neuro can appear after excessive heat in any snake
Neuro snakes will usually feed etc and visually appear to be normal looking until put under stress
Most exist and live reasonably long lives

Hopefully you took photos??
Maybe a comparison photo will help shed a bit of light on the cause

At a guess these were problems since birth
 
From the symptoms it isnt neuro
Neuro affects the motor system
Neuro can appear after excessive heat in any snake
Neuro snakes will usually feed etc and visually appear to be normal looking until put under stress
Most exist and live reasonably long lives

Hopefully you took photos??
Maybe a comparison photo will help shed a bit of light on the cause

At a guess these were problems since birth


Thanks for the info on neuro issues Longqi I was under the impression affected snakes wouldn't survive long. Unfortunatly I didnt think to take pics of the snake that died but the other one I have (that is barely noticable compared to the other one) also did something similar so if i see it again I will try and get pics.

I was confused by the green poo too, isnt that liver problems? and if so could that affect his death after eating? it was a bright lime green colour!
 
Welcome back Stary girl;)!
Sounds like it had contracted some form of bacterial infection in its gut, and was a poor doer. The odd behavior, and tail cramping might have been a result of pain. Thats my speculation.

ps don't mention the jag word......especially don't ask why........
 
:D Good to be back cement, having a little reunion inside LOL cheers for your thoughts much appreciated, three are doing very well and the other one thats a bit funny still hasnt eaten but is bigger than the one that died so should come good eventually
 
Just a little bit of info I have stumbled across since starting this post. Not sure how many of you saw the thread on Mathew Burton on FB however it was regarding some disguistingly skinny sick/dying geckoes that also came from Mathew. These jungles also came from Mathew Burton and he is unfortunatly proven to be one of those dodgey people in it for a the buck and no consideration of animals welfare.

Update on the other 4: 2 are powering along nicely however 2 have gone off food. I got one to feed this morning for the first time in a month and he was just spaz!! he was "attempting" to strike flipping over flopping here and there not what you would call a healthy striking response. However I persisted until he finally got a hold and wrapped up and YAHOO HE ATE!! only one now to get going. they are the size of id say a 5 months old snake and are meant to be 18months.

Lucky for them I have no intentions of giving up on providing them the most comfortable life possible but I do believe they have jag in them, the 2 I am having problems with appear fairly jag like in appearance to me, siblings id say.
 
Well done on your persistence, it seems to have paid off.
Regarding the seller, it is sad that there are people out to make a buck at the expense of animal welfare. We see it not only in reptiles, but "puppy farms" as well. The laws on animal welfare and cruelty need to be beefed up, maybe on a national basis. That way, these dodgies won't be able to move state to state to avoid being caught on their scams.
 
Fully aware of Mathew Burton stary boy... we are the ones that started legal action against him, but unfortunately DERM, Police & RSPCA are very tight lipped about it all and won't reveal if they seized any animals when they raided him and Ben Moses a few weeks ago... by the sounds of your post, they obviously have done nothing which does not surprise me. This particular Jungle you purchased from him, plus many other animals actually belong to Chris Rah (FB Name). Chris had to leave from Qld to WA for work and left all his animals + enclosures etc (30k worth) with Mathew Burton, trusting he would sell them for Chris... Matt sold them alright, but pocketed every cent. Chris is just one person, Matt has defrauded so many people now, I'm surprised he is even still alive?? There have also been that many pm's and reports of animals miss-treated and have died almost immediately after arriving to their destinations. A lot of people haven't even received their animals after they paid Matt.

Really sorry to hear your another victim of this pitiful excuse for a human being!

Wayne


Just a little bit of info I have stumbled across since starting this post. Not sure how many of you saw the thread on Mathew Burton on FB however it was regarding some disguistingly skinny sick/dying geckoes that also came from Mathew. These jungles also came from Mathew Burton and he is unfortunatly proven to be one of those dodgey people in it for a the buck and no consideration of animals welfare.

Update on the other 4: 2 are powering along nicely however 2 have gone off food. I got one to feed this morning for the first time in a month and he was just spaz!! he was "attempting" to strike flipping over flopping here and there not what you would call a healthy striking response. However I persisted until he finally got a hold and wrapped up and YAHOO HE ATE!! only one now to get going. they are the size of id say a 5 months old snake and are meant to be 18months.

Lucky for them I have no intentions of giving up on providing them the most comfortable life possible but I do believe they have jag in them, the 2 I am having problems with appear fairly jag like in appearance to me, siblings id say.
 
I have a pure jungle that was over heated as a baby and shows signs of neuro

Thats interesting, I am not sure if they are or not, to me they appear almost jag like and obviosly i DONT trust the person I bought them off however he did say they were pure from the same clutch, the one that died was black and white like the smaller still living one, 2 are high yellow and one is gold striped, none of the photos pf snakes I saw before purchase. I just picked up random snakes from the airport..local buyers only for me now.

As I said just give em a good lfe and emit them from any breeding programs down the track.
 
Excuse me for butting in and sorry if I've misunderstood, but are you saying that of the five snakes the guy sold you, one DIED, two are in poor health, and they weren't even the snakes that you saw in the photos?! WOW if it was me I would have some serious issues with him!!! I think you're 100% entitled to a refund or exchange for the actual snakes you saw in the photos, or at the very least exchange for some HEALTHY snakes...

Whatever you decide to do I'm really sorry you had to go through that :(
 
Excuse me for butting in and sorry if I've misunderstood, but are you saying that of the five snakes the guy sold you, one DIED, two are in poor health, and they weren't even the snakes that you saw in the photos?! WOW if it was me I would have some serious issues with him!!! I think you're 100% entitled to a refund or exchange for the actual snakes you saw in the photos, or at the very least exchange for some HEALTHY snakes...

Whatever you decide to do I'm really sorry you had to go through that :(

By all accounts you would have more luck getting blood from a stone than a refund/replacement from Matt Burton.

Thats interesting, I am not sure if they are or not, to me they appear almost jag like and obviosly i DONT trust the person I bought them off however he did say they were pure from the same clutch, the one that died was black and white like the smaller still living one, 2 are high yellow and one is gold striped, none of the photos pf snakes I saw before purchase. I just picked up random snakes from the airport..local buyers only for me now.

As I said just give em a good lfe and emit them from any breeding programs down the track.

Sounds like there is a lot of variation in the clutch. I would be fairly wary of labelling them as pure jungles. Hopefully they all come good for you. Not a very good experience for someone just coming back to the hobby.
 
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Excuse me for butting in and sorry if I've misunderstood, but are you saying that of the five snakes the guy sold you, one DIED, two are in poor health, and they weren't even the snakes that you saw in the photos?! WOW if it was me I would have some serious issues with him!!! I think you're 100% entitled to a refund or exchange for the actual snakes you saw in the photos, or at the very least exchange for some HEALTHY snakes...

Whatever you decide to do I'm really sorry you had to go through that :(

Dont apologise for butting in, its an open discussion :) I was not impressed with the situation I can assure you of that, but as Redfox said there is just no point trying to get refunds etc, I myself am just concerned for the health of the animals and grateful I am in possesion of them now.

- - - Updated - - -

Sounds like there is a lot of variation in the clutch. I would be fairly wary of labelling them as pure jungles. Hopefully they all come good for you. Not a very good experience for someone just coming back to the hobby.


They certainly are a unique bunch and even the 2 troublesome ones are growing and appearing much healthier than before so im confident we are on our way :) Not an awsome start but im an animal lover at heart so having the chance to help them removes the anger out of it for me. :) thanks everyone
 
Wait..surely you got the licence details before sale, and knew who you were dealing with? Why not pull out immdiately?

anyway..pure jungles sell much better than jag sibs, which is why there are far less snakes labelled as sibs these days, yet a lot more 'pure' jungles..hmm.
 
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