Carpondro/ Jagpondro Discussion. (play nice everyone)

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lochie

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*By carpondro I mean any kind of hybrid between other snakes and GTP. Bredli/jungle/diamond/coastal/darwin/JAG etc

Before I start this, I would like to state that I am very aware of some peoples opinions on hybridization and I'm really not looking for a moral debate or even a discussion on morals in this thread, anyone who wishes to partake in a discussion like that or simply abuse me can PM me and tell me their opinion as I'd raise arms to defend your freedom of speech and your entitled to it, however I ask you keep this thread clear from anything like that as I'm looking for information on not a very well covered topic largely because of arguments that have previously started rather than serious discussion and valid information. Lack of information with anything can be dangerous and cause unnessecary harm.

For example if you have bred them and had one succesfull snake and the rest died and you are against the idea.
Simply state that you had a clutch one was succesful and the rest died so you terminated breeding program due to the ratio of viable offsrping from the clutch. No cursing, no threats just tell the facts.

There is no debating that some amazingly beautiful animals/genes that have come from cross breeding and selective breeding throughout the reptile/pet industry world round. People won't stop doing it and it's here to stay, jags aren't going anywhere for example, and there is your precedent.

So with that being said, who has any information on carpondros from within Australia.
Anyone aware of breeders trying to find a viable way to produce these animals?
Are there any KNOWN problems with animal health?
Anyone have Australian carpondro pictures?
Anyone here own one? (feel free to PM rather than post if you don't want any hassle)
Is anyone here versed enough in reptile husbandry laws to KNOW 100% the legalites surrounding them.?

Any facts/experiences/information on this hybridisation within australia would be great.

** Note to mods,
Just because a topic is controversial due to humane reasons does not mean discussion should be stopped.
If anything factual information and transparency surrounding the suject should be encouraged to educate people correctly instead of forming opinions on misinformation. Lets let the facts and information speak for itself rather than opinionated object orientated arguments from emotionally invested people that lack any real experience or facts.


Please act maturely even if the person above you isn't.
 
But Jags are not Hybrids, with the exception of Bredli crosses they are all the same species.

The term "hybrid" may not encapsulate the entire genetic pool that is referred to as Jags however the moral and ethical arguments apply to jags as they do with carpodros with line breeding of siblings that compromise health for looks which is bases of the arguments which is why I used them as an example of how people are going to do as they please to validate this discussion.
 
I think you’ll find that it’s not the line breeding that people have a problem with. Plenty of the most popular purists line breed to achieve polygenic animals that are quite special. I think the problems is that people consider them to be abominations or, in the case of Jags, have issues with deliberately breeding retarded animals. Either way I think you’re making a bit of a mountain out of a mole hill. The mods don’t delete a thread just because someone mentioned the “h” word. There is nothing wrong with heated discussion so long as it doesn’t get personal and I think the new mods are more aware of allowing debates/arguments to go on so long as no personal insults occur.

I’d be curious to read some open discussion about this but even on the overseas sites where it is more accepted there seems to be a lot of guessing going on which tells me that there are very few people doing it successfully. Nobody likes to advertise their failures.
 
To me it seems that the carpondro thing is something you do just because you can, and there are a few other similar examples in the reptile world. Why you would take what is arguably the most beautiful python in the world and put it with a Carpet to produce something which has a deeply compromised appearance (it's subjective of course, but I've never seen a carpondro which doesn't look as though it's just crawled out of a sewerage pond)? Perhaps that's why they haven't "taken off" the way Jags have...

Jamie
 
there are a couple getting around including a rsp x gtp. I personally wouldn't breed or own one but I do like the look of a carpet python with the gtp head and body structure.
 
I have only seen a limited number of pictures of them and have yet to see one that I like. I totally agree with Jamie on this one.
 
The 50/50 crosses look ordinary as adults but when crossed back to a carpet the colour seem to improve but still keep the gtp structure. The problem is green gtp crossed to a red based carpet always turns brown, using a high yellow gtp would change the appearance greatly IMO
 
The problem with all hybridising may not be evident in the first few generations, but in the end it's like tipping a bunch of colours into a can of paint - you'll eventually ALWAYS end up with poo brown... it's a great looking future for our hobby...

Jamie
 
Probably one of the reasons full species crosses haven't taken off in Australia are the legal consequences. There is the possibility that the offspring are seized and euthanised.

Then there is the fact that due to it being illegal in most states, of not all, the market for these animals is limited. It makes the breeding of such animals a 'let's see what happens' sort of exercise, IMO.
 
Here are some links to carpondro:

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg

50% carpondro dam mixed with a green tree python sire.

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/images/2b69db2b2a8fa4dbe332fa51c7b1b5c0_oos5.png

Carpondro#2 (CB 6/2010) is a 75% green tree python/25% carpet python creation

Wouldnt breed the two together mostly because it is illegal in Qld, on the same token there are still pure bred cats and dogs... I dont see how the hobby would dramatically change to 'mud' if we where allowed to cross breed... breeders would still keep pure blood lines, and collectors would have more to choose from.
 
Probably one of the reasons full species crosses haven't taken off in Australia are the legal consequences. There is the possibility that the offspring are seized and euthanised.

Then there is the fact that due to it being illegal in most states, of not all, the market for these animals is limited. It makes the breeding of such animals a 'let's see what happens' sort of exercise, IMO.

I know you are right about it being illegal but I do not see it as being different to crossing a bredli with a coastal, which is done openly in most states so I do not see this as a reason. I think a lot of Aussie keepers see GTP's as a bit of a holy grail and therefore have not crossed them much.
 
I wonder what a fluro blue and fluro yellow carpondro will look like?

I think it was Mutton who said in one of the Morelia forums that the male carpondros appear to be sterile?
 
The problem with all hybridising may not be evident in the first few generations, but in the end it's like tipping a bunch of colours into a can of paint - you'll eventually ALWAYS end up with poo brown... it's a great looking future for our hobby...

Jamie

Look at the jags overseas, with the correct crossings they don't all turn out poo brown. The problem is people who don't care and just try to make a quick buck, breeding everything with everything to get a ''designer'' snake
 
I wonder what a fluro blue and fluro yellow carpondro will look like?

John Battaglia's website....stunning :)
 
Can somebody with a background in breeding dogs tell me if there is a similar discussion when it comes to cross breeding. Or any animal a actually.
 
All dogs are the same species so there is no cross species breeding but that is where a mule comes from. A cross with a horse and a donkey which is a cross species hybrid. I believe that there is also examples of cross genus breeding and even cross family breeding that happens.
 
I just think its sad that green tree pythons are so expensive and people are wasting good animals that could be breeding "pure" gtps and bringing the price down so they are more accessable to everyone in the hobby, they are beautiful animals and like fay said they are perfect, don't waste clutches on filth its not worth it. Nobody got in to this hobby to make money at the start we all just love reptiles and somewhere along the line money and pride got in the way of what we all love.
 
50/50 carpondros have always turned very ordinary by the time they reach adulthood

if they are bred back only to gtps for 3 generations you get 87/12
most of those animals are still too young to be sure of how they will look as adults
but from international photos could be ok

from other forums one of the reasons for breeding them is to have a gtp that is easy to handle and care for???
this doesnt wash when they are ending up with only 12% carpet in the mix

I have seen plenty of carpets to die for
same with plenty of chondros
cannot say the same about any carpondros
 
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