Carpondro/ Jagpondro Discussion. (play nice everyone)

[lochie]

I just think its sad that green tree pythons are so expensive and people are wasting good animals that could be breeding "pure" gtps and bringing the price down so they are more accessable to everyone in the hobby, they are beautiful animals and like fay said they are perfect, don't waste clutches on filth its not worth it. Nobody got in to this hobby to make money at the start we all just love reptiles and somewhere along the line money and pride got in the way of what we all love.

If you were to look at the ratio of GTP sold domestically that are used to breed carpondros compared to pure GTP there would be an overwhelming population breeding pures compared to maybe a total of <5 snakes if that domestically for carpondros, not nearly enough to lower the demand anyway, I'm yet to hear of anyone in australia actually breeding these. So yeah I don't really think that's an issue.



I also doubt that carpondros would be a viable source of income due to the amount ratio of viable offspring and the fact that they can't breed which just like andy said puts them in the same class as mules and as they are very much two different species creating a hybrid.

As for saying they are perfect, I'd go with that except there are people line breeding animals to create yellow GTP that stay more yellow as they mature and I don't see much difference. Either it's perfect and leave it OR they are gorgeous gems that shine more brilliantly with some polishing.

Anyway that's purely objective as if your filth comment but I'd personally love to snap my fingers and have this guy in my collection.
Not for breeding and to make money as they can't easily, just out of love for the beauty of the animal like you were suggesting.

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg

 

[andynic07]

[MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] it has just clicked to me that you said mixing colours will cause poo brown. I like brown snakes.

 

[zulu]

Its like crossing a commodore with a volvo ,just ugly and people will want to pass you all the time

 

[Wild~Touch]

[MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] it has just clicked to me that you said mixing colours will cause poo brown. I like brown snakes.

Roughies are def.NOT poo brown

they are magical mystical brown...the colours of the earth

 

[champagne]

I also doubt that carpondros would be a viable source of income due to the amount ratio of viable offspring and the fact that they can't breed which just like andy said puts them in the same class as mules and as they are very much two different species creating a hybrid.

Carpondros and jagpondros have similar issues to zebra carpets with viable offspring and fertility, yet they aren't affected by price and some breeders would disagree that they aren't a viable source of income. The reason no one claims to breed hybrid's in Australia, is the illegal issues and because of that a very small market.
GTP carpet crosses are viable and have been proven to not be sterile as once thought, like any hybrid they have lower fertility rates and harder to breed but defiantly not sterile.

 

[saximus]

I also heard they can be difficult to produce simply because Carpets and GTPs have different breeding times during the year. I think I read it on a forum so who knows the validity of it but if it's true, when would you expect the crosses to breed? And from a husbandry perspective, do you house them like a GTP or a Carpet or somewhere in between?

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Here are some links to carpondro:

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg

50% carpondro dam mixed with a green tree python sire.

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/images/2b69db2b2a8fa4dbe332fa51c7b1b5c0_oos5.png

Carpondro#2 (CB 6/2010) is a 75% green tree python/25% carpet python creation

Wouldnt breed the two together mostly because it is illegal in Qld, on the same token there are still pure bred cats and dogs... I dont see how the hobby would dramatically change to 'mud' if we where allowed to cross breed... breeders would still keep pure blood lines, and collectors would have more to choose from.

You are supposing a lot Drazzy. It is already difficult for dedicated pure species breeders to know whether what they are buying as a "pure" species/subspecies is actually that, unless they've known the vendor for 15 years, or unless they go out and catch snakes from the wild. This is a consequence of indiscriminate breeding and flogging animals off as what they look like, not what they actually are. Your comment about pure-bred cats & dogs is nonsensical - domestic dogs are all one species, but have been hugely and diversely distorted by the constant breeding for particular traits - if you take Bulldogs or Pugs as examples, they actually need caesarian sections to successfully deliver pups these days - and that's a very sad indictment on human nature. Domestic cats have never been "purebred" - they are a concoction of similar species, once again man-made, which date from several thousand years ago, and they have had other species added to them in recent times.

It's all for short-term gain, and I lament the constant need "collectors" have, to be the first kid on the block with something new. But I guess everything in life is being turned into commodities these days...

Jamie

 

[longqi]

Definitely not sterile if males are bred back to female chondros

 

[Ramy]

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg

Am I the only one who thinks that looks like it's covered in playdough? I feel like anything I would have liked about a GTP has been scrubbed aggressively with a scourer until it looks dirty.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

[MENTION=1228]Pythoninfinite[/MENTION] it has just clicked to me that you said mixing colours will cause poo brown. I like brown snakes.

Ha!!! Don't get me wrong - poo brown has its place, and I too love RSPs. The problem is that so few keepers have ever seen any sort of snake in the bush, and they never will, so to them they are just commodities or fashion accessories. They never see them in context with where they came from originally. Even the plainest Carpet looks magnificent in its natural setting, as you come across it basking in a ball in a patch or early morning sun, or crossing a track or warm road at night.

Jamie

 

[cement]

What?? Snakes come from the bush??

 

[andynic07]

I agree Jamie , I get a lot more excited and in awe of a snake in the bush than any snake that I have ever seen in captivity. I am hoping to try and plan a trip to the Iron Ranges to try and see some wild GTP's in the future but am unsure as I have heard that they are very illusive unless you are in the know. I am though getting to do a lot more local herping and planning a few overnight trips to herp with mates.

 

[lochie]

Carpondros and jagpondros have similar issues to zebra carpets with viable offspring and fertility, yet they aren't affected by price and some breeders would disagree that they aren't a viable source of income. The reason no one claims to breed hybrid's in Australia, is the illegal issues and because of that a very small market.
GTP carpet crosses are viable and have been proven to not be sterile as once thought, like any hybrid they have lower fertility rates and harder to breed but defiantly not sterile.

I always thought that a hybrid of two species cant successfully breed with another hybrid of the same combination.

For example a mule (horseXdonkey) can't breed with another mule.
Liger (lionxtiger) Can't breed with another liger.

Which is I thought was basically a characteristic of being two different species.


Carpondro Can't breed with another carpondro. unless what your suggesting contradicts that in which case this is why I started this thread could you link me or point me in the direction of where I could get more info on this. I was aware that you could breed them back to either a GTP or carpet as they are genetically closer than another carpondro as weird as that sounds.

I could be totally wrong in my understanding of how the specific genetics work which I why I reached out here for any information anyone could provide as I'm largely ignorant and there is very little info about.

- - - Updated - - -

You are supposing a lot Drazzy. It is already difficult for dedicated pure species breeders to know whether what they are buying as a "pure" species/subspecies is actually that, unless they've known the vendor for 15 years, or unless they go out and catch snakes from the wild. This is a consequence of indiscriminate breeding and flogging animals off as what they look like, not what they actually are. Your comment about pure-bred cats & dogs is nonsensical - domestic dogs are all one species, but have been hugely and diversely distorted by the constant breeding for particular traits - if you take Bulldogs or Pugs as examples, they actually need caesarian sections to successfully deliver pups these days - and that's a very sad indictment on human nature. Domestic cats have never been "purebred" - they are a concoction of similar species, once again man-made, which date from several thousand years ago, and they have had other species added to them in recent times.

It's all for short-term gain, and I lament the constant need "collectors" have, to be the first kid on the block with something new. But I guess everything in life is being turned into commodities these days...

Jamie

I'm interested in the genetics behind carpondros and to be honest any other type of "genetic goal" based breeding. I can't decide if I'm for or against something with out knowing all the facts. So if you have the time I'd love to hear your thoughts about health issues associated with them and explain a little clearly about what actually defines a species as the line seems to blur a little in reptiles compared to mammals.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree Jamie , I get a lot more excited and in awe of a snake in the bush than any snake that I have ever seen in captivity. I am hoping to try and plan a trip to the Iron Ranges to try and see some wild GTP's in the future but am unsure as I have heard that they are very illusive unless you are in the know. I am though getting to do a lot more local herping and planning a few overnight trips to herp with mates.

I've spent many years in FNQ rainforest and they are very illusive, however one day I saw 5 and that was when we were using a harness to go up to the canopy.

 

[champagne]

I also heard they can be difficult to produce simply because Carpets and GTPs have different breeding times during the year. I think I read it on a forum so who knows the validity of it but if it's true, when would you expect the crosses to breed? And from a husbandry perspective, do you house them like a GTP or a Carpet or somewhere in between?

same goes for breeding bredli jags or housing diamond jungle crosses, most people overseas keep all the carpets and gtps at the same temps

- - - Updated - - -

I always thought that a hybrid of two species cant successfully breed with another hybrid of the same combination.

For example a mule (horseXdonkey) can't breed with another mule.
Liger (lionxtiger) Can't breed with another liger.

Which is I thought was basically a characteristic of being two different species.


Carpondro Can't breed with another carpondro. unless what your suggesting contradicts that in which case this is why I started this thread could you link me or point me in the direction of where I could get more info on this. I was aware that you could breed them back to either a GTP or carpet as they are genetically closer than another carpondro as weird as that sounds.

I could be totally wrong in my understanding of how the specific genetics work which I why I reached out here for any information anyone could provide as I'm largely ignorant and there is very little info about.

You can breed woma x ball hybrid's together. I don't believe a carpondro to carpondro has been bred yet but it has been stated all over the net that carpondro males were sterile and couldn't breed this has been disproven, also there has now been several clutches using female gtp and this might be key to breeding carpondro back to carpondro

 

[yellowbeard]

I wonder what a fluro blue and fluro yellow carpondro will look like?

John Battaglia's website....stunning

I have to agree those are some stunning looking pythons, the blue and yellow one WOW!

 

[Newhere]

If you were to look at the ratio of GTP sold domestically that are used to breed carpondros compared to pure GTP there would be an overwhelming population breeding pures compared to maybe a total of <5 snakes if that domestically for carpondros, not nearly enough to lower the demand anyway, I'm yet to hear of anyone in australia actually breeding these. So yeah I don't really think that's an issue.



I also doubt that carpondros would be a viable source of income due to the amount ratio of viable offspring and the fact that they can't breed which just like andy said puts them in the same class as mules and as they are very much two different species creating a hybrid.

As for saying they are perfect, I'd go with that except there are people line breeding animals to create yellow GTP that stay more yellow as they mature and I don't see much difference. Either it's perfect and leave it OR they are gorgeous gems that shine more brilliantly with some polishing.

Anyway that's purely objective as if your filth comment but I'd personally love to snap my fingers and have this guy in my collection.
Not for breeding and to make money as they can't easily, just out of love for the beauty of the animal like you were suggesting.

http://moreliatrophyclub.com/uploads/MS-08-bluegarden.jpg

Yea I highly doubt you know what everyone is breeding in australia so your numbers dont mean anything really, why would you hear about peoples illegal activity? They would be worth a fair bit considering people fork out ridiculous amounts of money for these rare hybrids and if you think these people love these animals then why are they trying to change them? When you love something you dont need to change it.

 

[lochie]

Yea I highly doubt you know what everyone is breeding in australia so your numbers dont mean anything really, why would you hear about peoples illegal activity? They would be worth a fair bit considering people fork out ridiculous amounts of money for these rare hybrids and if you think these people love these animals then why are they trying to change them? When you love something you dont need to change it.

I stated previous to my number "maybe". Which is a pretext to my numbers to say that, I have no way of knowing exactly
So not only should you highly doubt I know, you should be 100% sure they mean nothing I have no idea as I told you so as they were clearly an example. I also rounded up my statement by saying that by drawing attention away from finite point of numbers to the larger picture which was making the point that regardless of exact figures it wouldn't affect supply and demand of GTP's and thus being a hindrance on the domestic snake marketplace.

I agree it's something that would be kept quiet and it could be more prominent than once thought. However I doubt it's a huge market size domestically.
I'd be happy to agree to disagree, I just think that the idea that an underground carpondro market that no exact figures can be ascertained about is inflating the price of GTP's is absurd.

As for if you love something you don't need to change it. I agree I have only owned pure "normal" species.
However if you change something it doesn't automatically negate all love for such animal.
What about anyone who has a hypo bredli? albino darwin? platinum maculosa? axanthic BHP? calico BHP? thyrosinase positive childrens?

Is there love negated because the animal is changed from the pure animal? I don't think so.

I don't think "change" is the deciding factor on whether you can gauge if true love and compassion is being shown for a animal.
I think that decision should be based upon the "genetic health" (Not bred regardless of high casualty rate/known defects reptiles dogs birds alike) of the animal, the quality of life of the animal, reasons for breeding in the first place and obviously the individual caring for the animals.

Don't fiddle with something that is already perfection.

I think there is a line in the sand somewhere that shouldn't be crossed.
I'm just looking for experiences and information so I can make my own decision rather than just accepting peoples words who have the time act all prophetic but have don't the time to share some knowledge with someone openly asking for information so they don't make a stupid decision. You wouldn't consider your axanthic hatchlings "fiddling" for example?

All I'm really saying is if "fiddling" is the line your in the sand, you might be on the wrong side of it yourself.
Or the answer requires more detail because some form of fiddling is okay as it's potentially naturally occurring compared to other fiddling which wouldn't occur naturally. Maybe the line in the sand isn't as clear as one thought.

All I'm after is information,

I have no idea what is right or wrong as I have no decent facts to go off, I may come off harsh or whatever but I'm just trying to play devils advocate to really understand how people think as most people forget that there are two sides to every coin and life isn't always contrasted as clearly as black and white.

 

[Newhere]

My point is if you breed a single clutch of carpondros then that is a clutch of animals that is wasted and one less clutch of pure gtps on the market. Its not a conspiracy to inflate the prices of gtps lol. All those animals you mentioned are naturally occuring pattern variations and one is a natural intergrade, a carpondro is not and will never be a naturally occuring phenomenon.

 

[champagne]

Yea I highly doubt you know what everyone is breeding in australia so your numbers dont mean anything really, why would you hear about peoples illegal activity? They would be worth a fair bit considering people fork out ridiculous amounts of money for these rare hybrids and if you think these people love these animals then why are they trying to change them? When you love something you dont need to change it.

Actually they are worth very little overseas where they are legal, around $600 to $650 for the descent looking ones. I doubt they would be worth much more here, especially being illegal.

 

[Newhere]

Something is only worth what another person is willing to pay for it and being illegal you would think the price would be higher compared to somewhere they are legal and easily available. Thats how see it anyway.