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I would just like to note that there is a significant difference between big lizards and big monitors i.e. thread title vs opening post.

The opening comment opens a veritable Pandora’s box of inconsistencies between different state’s licensing, questions on the need, commentary on the efficacy, inconsistencies in policing compliance and so on. What little it is worth I shall throw some of my thoughts into the mix.

On what basis should animals be categorised as “Basic” versus “Advanced” – assuming you have a two tier system of licensing. (My own preference is a three tier.) Size, as far as I am concerned, is not a valid criterion. What I believe needs to be considered are the following criteria: 1. The level of difficulty of meeting the animal’s needs in captivity; 2. The capacity of the animal to cause significant harm to humans; 3. The rarity of the animal in nature. Obviously these criteria can vary for a species from juvenile to adult. If they apply at any stage of development then that determines the category.

No animal is difficult to maintain if you know what you are doing and have the resources and so meet its needs.

Providing licences is based on a belief that going to the effort of acknowledging oneself as a keeper and paying money for the privilege is an incentive to get it right. Holding a basic license for the time required is seen as developing keeping skills which can then be applied to more difficult species on an advanced licence. The major shortfall I see with this is that keeping skills are species related and that experience with say geckos does not assist with keeping elapids etc. Just one more thorny problem.

Bringing illegal keeping into the discussion is not appropriate. The argument that setting laws and restrictions on people encourages keeping off the record is not relevant. It is in the same basket as people who don’t pay parking fines, who overstay their visas, who skip out on unpaid rent etc. Setting rules does not encourage this, it merely provides those who lack a social conscience and who are prepared to abrogate their civic responsibilities rather than accept them, another opportunity to do so.

I would just like to note that there is a significant difference between big lizards and big monitors i.e. thread title vs opening post.

Blue
 
Shouldn't be any laws or licenses to keep any captive bred reptiles. They mean nothing and do nothing.

You'll find out very quickly if you can or can't keep large varanids, or large pythons and elapids for that matter.
These are animals that can hurt you very easily and a mentor system, seeing their wild counterparts or just not being an idiot is a good way to start.
 
Yeah Sax, stop being a panzy...no Lacies for you:)!

In total agreement, as should the big pythons (and elapids). However, my main concern is for the animals well-being, "why does my baby Lacie hide all the time" and "why wont it eat it's greens"???..WT (you know the rest).

KingSirloin's quote comes to mind: "I'd hate to be a snake, living in the time of humans".

I disagree I think less licensing regulations but the breeders need to take more responsibility... Both the problems you gave examples of could be avoided if the breeder educated the new owner and made sure they had some experience with large monitors, snakes rather then just worrying about making the sale. All the good breeders already do this because they understand too many accidents and they will put them on a restricted license or take them away.

I also don't want to see the licensing system nationalised because qld licensing system is great and I don't want other state governments that I have no say over controlling what I can keep in my state.
 
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Shouldn't be any laws or licenses to keep any captive bred reptiles. They mean nothing and do nothing.

You'll find out very quickly if you can or can't keep large varanids, or large pythons and elapids for that matter.
These are animals that can hurt you very easily and a mentor system, seeing their wild counterparts or just not being an idiot is a good way to start.

I don't agree. That will further promote poaching.

I had a moron come in to work the other day asking questions relate to elapid husbandry. To my knowledge it's impossible to get them on license in the ACT so I questioned him about it. Turns out he takes elapids from the wild "keeps them for a few months to look after them" in less than adequate conditions and then releases them again. He has no knowledge of their needs or even what they eat and despite being bitten previously and almost losing a limb he is still more than happy to poach them. He didn't "believe" in licenses.

I think if anything there needs to be tougher restrictions and penalties regarding out wildlife. They are protected for a reason.
 
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Damn that looks like a machete attack lol. Did he try and catch it or something?
 
It was a Central Coast tree lopper who met a lacie up a tree while working.

- - - Updated - - -

Bringing illegal keeping into the discussion is not appropriate. The argument that setting laws and restrictions on people encourages keeping off the record is not relevant. It is in the same basket as people who don’t pay parking fines, who overstay their visas, who skip out on unpaid rent etc. Setting rules does not encourage this, it merely provides those who lack a social conscience and who are prepared to abrogate their civic responsibilities rather than accept them, another opportunity to do so.

Blue

responsible people relying on the irresponsible to do the right thing
 
I’ve always disliked the mentality that people break the rules so we might as well not those have rules. Taken to an extreme, people commit murder even though it’s illegal so why not just make that legal too?

At the end of the day, stupid bogans will continue to do stupid bogan things. That can’t be helped. However, if they exist, the normal person will follow the rules.
 
The reality of life is that where two or more humans interact, there is a need to govern those interactions so that the rights of each individual are delineated and can be respected. This is why we have governments. Anarchy is the alternative. History paints a very grim picture of all societies that have attempted to run without rules.

There will always be a percentage of people that are prepared to break the rules. The numbers willing to do so are determined by the likelihood of getting caught plus the cost if they do. I think it is safe to say that the likelihood of being caught out is slim and the disincentives for doing the wrong thing in our hobby are generally pretty soft. This is an on-going cause for frustration amongst the multitudes of responsible keepers.


Blue

 
The reality of life is that where two or more humans interact, there is a need to govern those interactions so that the rights of each individual are delineated and can be respected. This is why we have governments. Anarchy is the alternative. History paints a very grim picture of all societies that have attempted to run without rules.

There will always be a percentage of people that are prepared to break the rules. The numbers willing to do so are determined by the likelihood of getting caught plus the cost if they do. I think it is safe to say that the likelihood of being caught out is slim and the disincentives for doing the wrong thing in our hobby are generally pretty soft. This is an on-going cause for frustration amongst the multitudes of responsible keepers.


Blue

Very true but I think morals is also left out of this statement.
 
Yes, big monitors should be allowed on basic licensing as should all native Australian reptiles.
If you need a piece of paper to tell you that you aren't equipped to own a lace monitor or dangerous elapids then chances are you aren't the sharpest tool in the shed and should probably be your first indication that you aren't ready.

Realistically an advanced license means absolutely nothing other than you have forked over some money and appeased the authorities by attending a 2 day course. There are some who hold advanced licenses for venomous snakes who don't have the husbandry skills to keep a spotted python yet they got their license because they jumped through the hoops.

I think it's important to remember that not every one comes in to the hobby the same way, there are tonnes of people who have had years of hands on experience with elapids and large monitors but never held a recreational license so they are stuck with jumping through the bureaucrats hoops for the allotted time because the license application form doesn't ask if you have any provable prior knowledge.

At the end of the day it's simple. Don't purchase an animal you can't keep, keeping reptiles shouldn't be any different to your normal life where you assess the risk and make a decision based on experience. It's time people started accepting the consequences for their own actions.
 
The reality of life is that where two or more humans interact, there is a need to govern those interactions so that the rights of each individual are delineated and can be respected. This is why we have governments. Anarchy is the alternative. History paints a very grim picture of all societies that have attempted to run without rules.

There will always be a percentage of people that are prepared to break the rules. The numbers willing to do so are determined by the likelihood of getting caught plus the cost if they do. I think it is safe to say that the likelihood of being caught out is slim and the disincentives for doing the wrong thing in our hobby are generally pretty soft. This is an on-going cause for frustration amongst the multitudes of responsible keepers.


Blue


The numbers willing to break the rules are also governed by how cumbersome and restrictive the rules are in the first place. At the end of the day people need to be responsible for there own actions. Providing the general public are not put at risk it shouldn't be up to governments or other keepers to dictate who is capable of keeping what.
 
I disagree I think less licensing regulations but the breeders need to take more responsibility... Both the problems you gave examples of could be avoided if the breeder educated the new owner and made sure they had some experience with large monitors, snakes rather then just worrying about making the sale. All the good breeders already do this because they understand too many accidents and they will put them on a restricted license or take them away.

I also don't want to see the licensing system nationalised because qld licensing system is great and I don't want other state governments that I have no say over controlling what I can keep in my state.

This is in no way the breeders responsibility.
This is like saying the shop assistant should be responsible for someone taking an overdose.
 
This is in no way the breeders responsibility.
This is like saying the shop assistant should be responsible for someone taking an overdose.

Well any good pharmacy that you are buying drugs from will explain to you how to use them and make sure you understand...

If you breed large pythons/ monitors or any animal for that matter, you have a moral obligation as a breeder to make sure that the person you selling to has the ability to look after the animal correctly... If you can't understand that you should not be breeding.
 
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Hobby has enough restrictions as it is, you guys whining on about putting more in place... The system should just be tier 1 - non-venomous, tier 2 - venomous. Then bring in plenty of collection permits for a fee and allow people to also keep native mammals, don't bother putting frogs and birds on a licence just let people keep them. And there you go, winning system. Very few restrictions and lots of freedom as to what you can keep. Don't know about you guys but I would much prefer a system like this to any of the current ones.
 
Collection permits do not work except under very strict guidelines
To put those guidelines in place would make each permit cost about $100.000

I do agree there should be more permits for native mammals

How long do you think rare birds would last in the wild if no permits were required???
Cassowary. various cockatoos etc etc
 
At the end of the day it's simple. Don't purchase an animal you can't keep, keeping reptiles shouldn't be any different to your normal life where you assess the risk and make a decision based on experience. It's time people started accepting the consequences for their own actions.

mate..you're giving people Way, WAY too much credit.

besides, I couldnt care less if some bogan halfwit loses a few fingers.. I'd be more concerned about the animals that bought by the people that just want a goanna to show off to their mates.
 
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Longqi,

Honestly I'd be surprised if collection permits were that cheap. If it meant people could legally get species such as superb dragons or nephrurus vertebralis I imagine some people out there would be willing to pay a slightly excessive amount.

Well honestly I just keeping thinking how sweet it would be to see private keepers legally keeping spotted cuscus or striped possums.

You got me with the birds though longqi, a lot of the nice stuff would get plundered in the wild. So yes, make the rarer stuff require a licence and see how it goes from there I suppose.
 
Maybe it's another case of different rules in different states, but can't you keep native mammals in Vic?
 
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