Dry bites is it a conscious choice or just a lottery?.

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If venom delivery is not voluntary in any way...how do we explain the spitting species?

D

G'day my friend.

I should begin by explaining that (as pointed out in a previous thread) the reptilian brain supersedes the human brain by about 200 million years. It is the core for the human and other mammal and bird brains to develop to their present levels but unlike mammals and birds has not developed further since that time.

I've done a little digging around and from what I've read to date have come to the conclusion that "spitting" venom is not a conscious act in Cobras. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong. This is my personal conclusion after investigating a number of papers and articles. As always I encourage others opinions.

I've come to this conclusion based on:

The human brain consists of three distinct brains that have developed over time through evolution to co-inhabit the modern human scull.

These three separate brains are the;

1. Reptilian brain - Oldest and responsible for autonomic functions such as heart beat and breathing, body temperature, flight and fight response, survival. of instinct. It first appeared in fish
about 500 million years ago and went on to develop to it's most advanced stage in reptiles around 200
million years ago. It appears to have not evolved to recognise conscious thought.

2. Limbic brain - This evolved in the first mammals around 150 million years ago and basically records memories of
behaviour and is responsible for the future development of emotions

3. Niocortex - Appeared and began it's expansion in primates about 3 million years ago. It plays the dominant role
responsible for human language, abstract thought and conscious thought.


My understanding is that Cobra's that are capable of spitting do this as a defensive reaction. The defensive reaction is a subconscious thought activated in the amygdala which is situated at the top of the brain stem. It is linked to fear responses and allows animals to react almost instantaneously to the presence of danger without thinking.

I'm open to discussion but I don't believe it has anything to do with subduing prey; ie Do they use it as a means to capture and subdue prey before ingestion? Maybe someone who has witnessed this in the field or captivity can enlighten me further if this is is the case.

From what I understand; by all definition a defensive reaction is a subconscious act that has nothing to do with thinking and cannot be controlled. Conscious thought is when a situation summed up and a decision is made.

From what I have read I'm under the impression it has been established that the mechanics of the spitting action is directly linked to the mechanics of injecting venom and if selected species of Cobra's only use the "spitting action" as a means of defence, in all consideration it is more than probable that this is an instinctive and unconscious act.

George
 
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Yes, this is true from a biological perspective - although venom is simply modified saliva, a snake will only pump as much venom as it needs to. You know the old saying that a snaked produces enough toxin in 1 ml of venom to kill so many hundred/thousand rats? The reason they don't pump that amount of venom into one singular rat is because it is made to order and they generally won't waste venom if they are warding off something that they don't plan to eat. Hence why some snakes hit like machine guns, they means business.

Best to treat all venomous snake bites as though you have been envenomated.

Good question mate and one that I've wondered about myself.
My thoughts are that because venom is a biologically expensive product to make, that they don't waste it unnecessarily and they will often send out warning shots first.
 
This has been a most informative thread.

One final comment - wrt spitting venom requiring conscious effort - I've met people who spit without any apparent conscious decision to do so.

Also, I think most of us have worked out that we can activate a reflex in our mouth & spray saliva - surely I'm not the only one who's noticed this.
 
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If you have kept spitting Cobras before... you will know that it is a defensive reaction that can be executed at anytime the animal see's fit.

If it can be executed anytime the animal see's fit, it is a conscious reaction.

For instance, they won't spray venom at your back if you walk up to on with your back to them. Turn around and they can see your eyes, they spray venom.....a conscious reaction to threat.

D
 
So is the snake thinking "i'll wait till he turns around"..., or is it just so scared by seeing the eyes and face of a large predator that the jolt of fear causes the spit reaction?
 
You could say that....esp if you haven't kept them.

If you have kept a spitting species before.... then you will know that they are perfectly able to "decide" when is the best time to "defend" themselves.

If they weren't, it would be different type of defense displayed....wildly spitting at every perceived threat. They don't do that. They are perfectly able to pick and chose their shots.


Cheers,
D
 
Nope, definatly never kept spitting cobras. Just a question buddy.. I would love to be able to then I would be able to see for myself, but I live in Australia.
 
It's all good brother, just speaking from experience with them.....that's all.

D
 
So is the snake thinking "i'll wait till he turns around"..., or is it just so scared by seeing the eyes and face of a large predator that the jolt of fear causes the spit reaction?

It is definitely a defensive action
Notice I used action rather than reaction [more bout that later]

Any adult Naja sputatrix can definitely decide exactly how when and how much venom it will spit
If it was simply a defensive reaction the result would be similar any time it felt threatened
They spit from any position often before even raising their hood

Right now we have 3 large adults and about 10 smaller ones
One large adult sprayed like crazy when I caught it a week ago
Now it hoods up and turns the lip back but doesnt spray until I really stir it up
Second adult sprays as soon as you open the box
Third adult doesnt even turn the lip back

All were put under similar threat by me tonight to watch any differences
If it had been defensive reaction all would have reacted in a similar fashion to the same perceived threat??
That is why I think it it is best described as defensive action
 
G'day my friend.

I should begin by explaining that (as pointed out in a previous thread) the reptilian brain supersedes the human brain by about 200 million years. It is the core for the human and other mammal and bird brains to develop to their present levels but unlike mammals and birds has not developed further since that time.

I've done a little digging around and from what I've read to date have come to the conclusion that "spitting" venom is not a conscious act in Cobras. I'm not saying anyone else is wrong. This is my personal conclusion after investigating a number of papers and articles. As always I encourage others opinions.

I've come to this conclusion based on:

The human brain consists of three distinct brains that have developed over time through evolution to co-inhabit the modern human scull.

These three separate brains are the;

1. Reptilian brain - Oldest and responsible for autonomic functions such as heart beat and breathing, body temperature, flight and fight response, survival. of instinct. It first appeared in fish
about 500 million years ago and went on to develop to it's most advanced stage in reptiles around 200
million years ago. It appears to have not evolved to recognise conscious thought.

2. Limbic brain - This evolved in the first mammals around 150 million years ago and basically records memories of
behaviour and is responsible for the future development of emotions

3. Niocortex - Appeared and began it's expansion in primates about 3 million years ago. It plays the dominant role
responsible for human language, abstract thought and conscious thought.


My understanding is that Cobra's that are capable of spitting do this as a defensive reaction. The defensive reaction is a subconscious thought activated in the amygdala which is situated at the top of the brain stem. It is linked to fear responses and allows animals to react almost instantaneously to the presence of danger without thinking.

I'm open to discussion but I don't believe it has anything to do with subduing prey; ie Do they use it as a means to capture and subdue prey before ingestion? Maybe someone who has witnessed this in the field or captivity can enlighten me further if this is is the case.

From what I understand; by all definition a defensive reaction is a subconscious act that has nothing to do with thinking and cannot be controlled. Conscious thought is when a situation summed up and a decision is made.

From what I have read I'm under the impression it has been established that the mechanics of the spitting action is directly linked to the mechanics of injecting venom and if selected species of Cobra's only use the "spitting action" as a means of defence, in all consideration it is more than probable that this is an instinctive and unconscious act.

George

Following on from this, and getting back to the original question, can some/all elapids (especially Australian) decide between two actions - a defensive dry bite and a food-related envenomation?
 
Hi Nic,

I do keep snakes including Australian vens and have maintained, studied and collected many varied species of these throughout the years and as a result my particular interest these days evolves around reptile physiology.

In my initial post on this thread I stated that I did not know if snakes can deliberately/intentionally choose to inject venom. Further posts by others triggered my ever inquiring mind and I set off (as I tend to do) to investigate the topic.

So, over the past 6 or 7 days I have spent considerable time reading quite a number of scientific papers, articles & reptile publications related to reptile physiology, the venom delivery system, mechanics of delivery, the reptilian, animal and primate brains then combined all this information with personal experience and observation as well as considered all what has been posted on this thread.

As a result I haven't uncovered or been convinced by any evidence to date to confirm to me that snakes, including elapids, are capable of making a conscious choice to deliver venom or a dry bite.

No doubt there are others that oppose this view and if they can provide positive hard evidence to back their argument I'm open and encourage discussion with the possibility of changing my mind.

I'm not saying anyone is wrong and I'm not saying I am right. I'll leave that judgement up to others. I respect the opinions and information offered. I also recognise some opinions may differ. This is just my personal conclusion based on the evidence presented and that which I have uncovered.

I recognise that Peter (Longqi) & DRoddy have personal experience with Spitting Cobras and both have contributed by informing that "spitting" venom is used as a means of defence. However; the information they have posted, regarding the action as being a conscious act, seems to me, to be only based on assumption. Personally, I don't find enough hard, clear and precise evidence provided in their posts to back up their conclusion that venom delivery (or in the case of some Cobras, ejection) is a conscious choice.

Albeit from personal experience with collecting vens I learnt many years ago that to have any chance of catching them in open situations, the last thing you want to do is make eye contact. This is because as soon as eye contact is made they become instinctively aware of the possibility of threat and as a result act instinctively (subconsciously, without thought) with a flight or fight response. What DRoddy mentioned about being able to walk up to "spitters" with your back turned and the "spitters" not reacting until eye contact is made appears to me to be conducive with a natural, instinctive (subconscious), defensive response.

From my experience, captive situations regarding snakes defensive reactions differ quite a great deal to those encountered in the wild. I am aware that due to many variables, even recently caught and held snakes can display different defensive reactions within a short period of captivity and personally do not consider captive defensive reactions creditable enough as evidence to confirm that a defensive reaction under these conditions is a genuine conscious choice.

The main contributing factors to my conclusion are based on evidence obtained in the form of scientific literature/publications, personal observations, personal experience and discussions with associates.

All this information combined leads me to the conclusion that snakes are a primitive animal with a very small primitive brain and do not possess the ability to recognise conscious thought.

Therefore, I'm going with the negative and saying. No...They can not decide between two actions - a defensive dry bite and a food related envenomation.

Again I reiterate that this is my personal conclusion based on evidence uncovered/obtained.

So I'll leave it up to you and others to come to their own conclusion.

Cheers,

George.
 
I have a feeling that one day in the future science will change its mind about reptilian brains/intelligence

Rinjals [sic] from Southern Africa play dead
Yet they only play dead with some predators

Some Iguanas solve food or escape related puzzles

We are only starting to scratch the surface in learning about reptiles
We may have a lot to learn

- - - Updated - - -

Feeding cobras kraits and vipers tonight

result
100% envenomation
Types of bite
Krait x2 bit and held on
Cobra 3 bit and held on
5 bit and immediately released [no lower jaw contact visible]
Vipers
1 bit and chewed before releasing
2 bit and immediately released

In all cases except the kraits the victims were dead or dying before consumption
Kraits both bit multiple times and chowed down immediately

IMO all the bites contained venom because of the reaction of the prey items

Statistics
13 snakes
13 bites
13 probable envenomations

Question
If snakes cannot control their venom input why would it appear that in this case 13 bites resulted in 13 envenomations, while if those bites had been into humans scientific fact shows that the rate of envenomation would be around 50%-+??
 
George,

The amygdala is part of the Limbic System and according to the 3-brain model you espoused is therefore NOT part of the reptilian brain. So what is it doing in a Cobra’s head?
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The 3-part brain model you expounded is known as the Triune Brain was proposed by the American physician and neuroscientist Paul D. MacLean in the 1960s. It was hypothesised by MacLean to explain the evolution of the vertebrate forebrain and related behaviours. It was popularised through inclusion in a Pulitzer Prize winning book but gained very limited academic support, especially with comparative neuroscientists.

From the late 1980s on, advances in techniques that allowed the mapping of neurotransmissions in the brains of animals, revealed that the basis of MacLean’s hypothesis was incorrect. The basal ganglia structures from which MacLean’s reptilian brain were derived have been shown to exist in amphibians and fish as well i.e. they are present in all extant vertebrates which pushes the origin back to a common vertebrate ancestor more than 500 million years ago. This has further been supported by strong recent evidence that the neocortex was already present in the earliest mammals and that a homologous structure derived from the same tissues and with similar connections within the telencephalon, like those made by the neocortex, exist in reptiles and birds.
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Striated muscle is under voluntary control. It involves nerve pathways which involve the cerebrum.
You need to look up the nerve pathways involved in a reflex arc.
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From: Davidson College, Davidson, North Carolina US - Animal Physiology Class. (The college has graduated 23 Rhodes Scholars)
Excerpt: Rattlesnakes are also known to alter their behaviour according to the prey type, holding onto prey that are more mobile (birds) while releasing prey (mice) that may be easily located using the chemosensory system even if they are allowed to travel after being envenomated (Hayes, 1992a).

From: Miami University, Oxford, Ohio US - Anatomy of Venomous Snakes notes
Excerpt:The accessory gland was noted by Mitchell to prevent wasteful flow of the secretions. This gland lacks smooth muscle and is strictly regulated by striated muscle. Implications are that the accessory gland is under voluntary control and that snakes can and do control the amount of venom that is released during a bite.

From: Handbook of Venoms and Toxins of Reptiles
Excerpt: [p75-p76] The venom glands. of viperids (Kardong and Lavin-Murcio, 1993), elapids (Rosenberg, 1967), and atractaspidids (Kochva, 2002) are part of high-pressure delivery systems. The venom bolus is quickly expelled; rattlesnakes can deliver venom in less than half a second (Kardong and Bels, 1998). Although the specific gland compressor is different in each family (Jackson, 2003), all of these venom systems exhibit notably direct striated muscle insertion. When the gland compressor muscle contracts, the main venom gland is pressurized, producing expulsion of a presynthesized, stored, venom bolus. From venom gland to exit orifice at the tip of the tubular fang, this system is closed when activated, not open to ambient pressures, and therefore can develop, under striated muscle action, a sustained high-pressure head until venom enters the prey or predator (cf. Rosenberg, 1967).

From: Young et al. Functional Bases of the Spatial Dispersal of Venom during Cobra “Spitting”. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology, 2009; 82 (1): 80 DOI: 10.1086/595589
Excerpt: The name "spitting cobra" is a bit of a misnomer. Cobras don't actually "spit" venom, says the study's lead author Bruce Young, director of the Anatomical Laboratory in the Department of Physical Therapy at the University of Massachusetts, Lowell. Muscle contractions squeeze the cobra's venom gland, forcing venom to stream out of the snake's fangs. .

From: The Journal of Experimental Biology 213, 1797-1802 © 2010. Published by The Company of Biologists Ltd
doi:10.1242/jeb.037135. Target tracking during venom ‘spitting’ by cobras. Guido Westhoff1, Melissa Boetig2, Horst Bleckmann1 and Bruce A. Young3,* 1 University of Bonn, Germany, 2 Washburn University, Topeka, KS USA and 3University of Massachusetts Lowell, MA USA *Author for correspondence ([email protected]).
Excerpt: In the present study we show that spitting cobras can accurately track the movements of a potentially threatening vertebrate, and by anticipating its subsequent (short-term) movements direct their venom to maximize the likelihood of striking the target’s eye. Unlike other animals that project material, in spitting cobras the discharge orifice (the fang) is relatively fixed so directing the venom stream requires rapid movements of the entire head. The cobra’s ability to track and anticipate the target’s movement, and to perform rapid cephalic oscillations that coordinate with the target’s movements suggest a level of neural processing that has not been attributed to snakes, or other reptiles, previously. [Take note Longqi]

From: Venom flow in rattlesnakes: mechanics and metering. Bruce A. Young* and Krista Zahn. Department of Biology and Program in Neuroscience, Lafayette College, Easton, PA 18042, USA. Accepted 28 September 2001
Excerpt: The functional morphology of venom injection in Crotalus atrox was explored using high-speed digital videography combined with direct recording of venom flow using perivascular flow probes. Although venom flow was variable, in most strikes the onset of venom flow was coincidental with fang penetration, and retrograde flow (venom suction) was observed prior to fang withdrawal. The duration of venom flow was consistently less than the duration of fang penetration. The occurrence of retrograde flow, ‘dry bites’ (which accounted for 35 % of the strikes) and unilateral strikes all support a hypothesis for venom pooling in the distal portion of the venom delivery system. No significant difference in temporal or volumetric aspects of venom flow were found between defensive strikes directed at small and large rodents. With the species and size of target held constant, the duration of venom flow, maximum venom flow rate and total venom volume were all significantly lower in predatory than in defensive strikes.
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To say venom has "two primary purposes" is not quite correct. This indicates that either both are of equal importance in their functions or that both are fundamental in what they do. A venomous snake can digest prey that has not been envenomated, so clearly assisting digestion is not a fundamental function if it can be done without. In terms of importance, procuring a meal in the first place is more important than gaining assistance with its digestion. You cannot digest a meal that you have been unable to procure.

I suspect that nearly all venoms provide some assistance to digestion but this varies from minimal, as would seem to be the case with our Australian elapids, to significant with many of the Viperidae, in particular those with strongly cytotoxic venom.

I also think it important to add “defence” to the list of functions.
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I stopped researching because I had too much material. As it is I have only used a portion of what I did collect due to length. The information is out there and accessible – there is no question about that.
I don’t think I can convince you of anything. I am simply putting some hard data on the table for you to consider if you so wish. If it still clashes with your schema then it is only sensible that we agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Blue
 
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Hi Blue,

G’day my friend. After reading your post I couldn’t just “leave it at that” and considering what you’ve written I’ve decided it deserves a response.

It appears to me that what I have posted just may clash with your schema. So, like you state we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

You seem to have gone to a lot of trouble to access the information you posted but I was wondering if you realize the question posed is “Dry bites – are they a conscious thought or just a lottery?”

As well as having a life long interest in herpetology (extending just shy of 50 years) my job as a private investigator involves providing lawyers and barristers with hard unbiased evidence, which amongst other things includes examining and reporting on scientific documentation. This is to assist them in cases regarding very complex matters. This process involves having an open mind and searching “outside the box”.

Since your last post I have undertaken further research with the aim to find discussion regarding conscious thought in snakes and it appears that very minimal (if any) has been published directly related to the topic. So I don’t know where all the alleged “hard data” you researched is located. I have not found any evidence anywhere to confirm to me a relationship between conscious thought and dry bites in snakes. Albeit I haven’t uncovered any evidence to confirm or deny if snakes are capable of any sort of conscious thought.

Your post infers that the Basal ganglia are directly related to conscious thought in snakes. I don’t see this as the case.

The R-comples: The reptilian Brain – Basal ganglia and Thalamus
Psycheducation.org

These are the oldest parts of the brain: the ones that we share with reptiles and birds. They are thought to be the location of basic drives and instincts, basic needs and avoidances.

To explain it simply – It is the base of the building blocks used in the development of other animal brains.

What I have discovered is that there are many skills associated with the survival in all animals. Many of these skills are derived through environmental stimulus. Conscious thought is not a skill necessary for the survival of snakes.

FYI Hard data confirms a fact. Hard data regarding conscious thought in reptiles would either state that they do or don’t have the capability of conscious thought.

I suspect that following the intense research you have undertaken you have selected what you consider to be the most appropriate relevant informative options to make your case but unfortunately there is nothing contained to confirm or deny to me that snakes are capable of conscious thought.

Even the Abstract you copied and pasted from “Target Tracking During Venom Spitting by Cobras” (which by the way I accessed and read before posting my conclusion) only states that “cephalic oscillations that coordinate with the target’s movements suggest a level of neural processing that has not been attributed to snakes, or other reptiles, previously”.

Neurons are nerve cells that individually serve a simple function of processing and transmitting information. When the nerve cells transmit and process in clusters they called a neural network,

I suppose it’s how one interprets the term “neural processing”.

In regard to the above case. Does it infer the possibility of a conscious thought process? Or does it refer to the subconscious neural processing of stimuli received through sensory organs (sight, smell, heat) as is used by snakes to judge strike distance? The cephalic isolations immediately prior to “spitting” suggest to me it is more likely the later. I don’t see anywhere in the paper where the author describes it as a conscious act.

Voluntary control relating to skeletal muscle action in snakes is not hard data regarding conscious thought. The term “voluntary control” can be misleading considering voluntary muscle actions/reactions in vertebrates (including snakes) can be a subconscious act. For example;

Ceoccp.oxfordjournals.org
Skeletal Muscle Physiology
P. M. Hopkins – Professor of Anaesthesia

Extract –

The skeletal muscles are the effector organs of the locomotor system. They are under voluntary control, although much of their activity is subconsciously regulated. Skeletal muscle and cardiac muscle are both described as striated muscle because of their striped microscopic appearance. This appearance results from the ordered and regular arrangement of the sub-cellular contractile elements. Unlike cardiac muscle, skeletal muscle has no intrinsic spontaneous activity because it lacks the ion channels responsible for spontaneous membrane depolarization. Therefore, the stimulus for physiological skeletal muscle activity is always derived from a nerve impulse. The great majority of skeletal muscle fibres receive their nerve inputs at single central swellings of the fibres known as motor endplates.

It’s a term regularly used to describe reactions to some sensory stimulation where nervous impulses send messages to muscles faster than the brain can react. All material I have read to date indicates to me that it is a subconscious act related to bite reaction and venom control.

I don’t need to look up the nerve pathways involved in a reflex arc.

Before I posted my conclusion I already new about the subject.

A reflex action is a subconscious "nervous" reaction that cannot be controlled. It requires a stimulus to get a response. It occurs without thinking. Again, it’s a sensory stimulation where nervous impulses send messages to muscles faster than the brain can react.

Here’s an excerpt taken from csmbio.csm.jmu.ed/biology/danie2jc/reflex.htm that I often refer to friends regarding vertebrae muscle reflex and the reflex arc.

Reflexes – Background.

A reflex is a response to a perturbing stimulus that acts to return the body to homeostasis. This may be subconscious as in the regulation of blood sugar by the pancreatic hormones, may be somewhat noticeable as in shivering in response to a drop in body temperature; or may be quite obvious as in stepping on a nail and immediately withdrawing your foot.
A reflex arc refers to the neural pathway that a nerve impulse follows. The reflex arc typically consists of five components (3):
1. The receptor at the end of a sensory neuron reacts to a stimulus.
2. The sensory (afferent) neuron conducts nerve impulses along an afferent pathway towards the central nervous system (CNS).
3. The integration center consists of one or more synapses in the CNS.
4. A motor (efferent) neuron conducts a nerve impulse along an efferent pathway from the integration center to an effector.
5. An effector responds to the efferent impulses by contracting (if the effector is a muscle fiber) or secreting a product (if the effector is a gland)
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I concede that technically you are correct with your definition of the word primary. Your analogy regarding procuring prey may be consistent with front fanged advanced snakes. But … How do we describe the primary function of venom in rear fanged genera where venom plays no significant role in prey capture or defence?
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From what I’ve read about elapid venoms I disagree that it only provides minimal assistance in the digestion of food.
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Just to finish up;

You are correct that the amygdala is situated in the Limbic brain and not present in the reptile brain. There was a lot more discussion in that paragraph relating to defensive reactions in mammals compared to defensive reactions in snakes than was posted. I thought I had removed it and it wasn't until I read you comment that I realised I hadn't deleted the lot. Thanks for pointing that out. I apologise to all for any confusion I may have caused.

I can assure you that I am opened minded and capable of adapting and changing my thoughts and beliefs if I can locate or be provided with information to inspire me to do so. I think I stated this in a previous post. Unfortunately this is not the case with what you have provided. I’ll add that I don’t deliberately focus on references that support or confirm my pre-existing beliefs and ideas.


George.
 
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I concede that technically you are correct with your definition of the word primary. Your analogy regarding procuring prey may be consistent with front fanged advanced snakes. But … How do we describe the primary function of venom in rear fanged genera where venom plays no significant role in prey capture or defence?
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George.

I have only considered one part of this as something I can possibly answer
Primary function of some rear fanged snakes is definitely prey capture

Sea snakes use venom to subdue large prey
I have watched banded sea kraits and olive sea snakes hunting moray eels
If the eel is small they bite, hang on and almost immediately start eating
If the prey is large they bite near the head then bite down the body several times
Then they sit back and watch and follow waiting for the venom to take effect

Malayan kraits, bungarus candidus, front fanged elapids. Do exactly the same thing with other snakes before eating them
But they dont do the same thing with lizards

I would be really interested in a discussion about why so many human bites are dry while prey item bites appear to be usually wet
Surely that alone suggests that some thought is involved??
 
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