Help! Need to find out what this substrate is - Vermiculite ?

[chris.w]

Chris

Vermiculite is a good option in an incubator to hold moisture and maintain humidity levels but not much good as a substrate, so in someone's defence they may have stocked it as an "incubator substrate" and not intended it to be used in your enclosure, your snake will not eat it intentionally, but may digest some if it comes in contact with its food, use news paper and problem solved.

 

[AnimalsGirl]

You could also try using a more natural substrate, trying to re-create an environment to simulate where your snakes may occur in the wild - newspaper is not the only other option Also, if you have arboreal snakes, feeding them whilst they are up in their branches well above the substrate can alleviate issues of debris sticking to food items and being unintentionally ingested.

Just a thought - we like to keep things as close to nature as we possibly can and have never had issues with our snakes or lizards

 

[Rogue5861]

I believe the product Dr Shane Simpson has been supplied with also had little to no dust unlike what you can purchase from bunnings. It seems like another suitable substrate to use but of course everyone uses what works best for them.

I wouldnt expect big breeders to be swapping out their tried and trusted substrate for this new one, but what is to stop people trialing this new substrate? I would say the only thing stopping them is uneducated people spreading misconceptions about it.

Ive tried a few substrates with some of the different species i keep (frogs, geckos, monitors, beardies and pythons). I have found some products that work well for me and my animals and will be sticking to these, tried and tested by myself and other keepers i trust what i am using. Coco peat, play sand, red sand, paper pellets, news paper and some mixes are what are working for me currently for different species.

For incubation i use the "over water" method and have had no reason to swap to vermiculite. I know others that use sphagnum, sand, coco or vermiculite with success.

I say dont knock it until you have tried it, having an opinion on something without an education is just misleading others.


Rick

 

[serpenttongue]

Thanks for the info Drazzy!
I have removed this from my snakes enclosures.
I can't believe someone would sell this at a reptile expo. I am so infuriated and disappointed.

Are you sure it was being sold as a substrate and not as an egg-incubating medium?

 

[HayleyChuck93]

Are you sure it was being sold as a substrate and not as an egg-incubating medium?

Yes it was as the doctor just said it is being sold by companies for this purpose now apparently.


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[HayleyChuck93]

Hi all,
One of my few posts on this forum but I feel I need to comment on this thread to correct some of the information being presented.

HayleyChuck93 already knows me feelings towards the use of vermiculite as a substrate as we have already had a "discussion" on a Facebook page that she posed the same question. Unfortunately she deleted the post and so no-one else can see my comments...

As a matter of transparency I do not endorse the company that is producing vermiculite nor have I received any financial gain from them for the following comments. I was approached by them to get my opinion on their product and its suitability for the use of it as a substrate for reptiles. I have been provided with a quantity of vermiculite substrate to trial for my own animals as I have now been doing for several weeks. As with any products that I am asked about I do extensive research into the safety, manufacture etc. before I make any comment.

In short I believe that in my experience so far and with the information that I have been provided vermiculite is actually a very good, very safe substrate!

To correct some of the information posted:

1. Vermiculite is not toxic if ingested. In fact it has been used in the veterinary and agricultural industries for years. It is used a carrier for medicinal applications and is fed to livestock. There are no reported toxicities in those species. While there is no data for reptiles species given the simplicity of their gut anatomy compared to that of cows, sheep etc. I would be more than comfortable suggesting it is safe in reptiles. Basically if a cow's stomach cannot break it down than a snake's is unlikely to!

2. Vermiculite does not swell with heat once it has been initially heat treated. Vermiculite is a mineral substance that is a by-product of the mining industry such as copper mining. When it comes out of the ground if is in flakes much like "fish food" flakes. It is heated and expands to its size that we see it being sold as. The heating process requires temperatures in the range of 600 degrees I believe ie. a lot hotter than it will ever get in a reptile enclosure!

3. Asbestos... In the 1970s and 1980's some vermiculite that was mined by the 3M company in the USA contained asbestos and was sold to US customers. The product mined here in Australia is certified asbestos-free and the mine site(s) are tested every 3 months. The testing is done by an independent company. I have been provided with the latest report that indicates it asbestos free. I also point out that vermiculite is used in many, many products (eg. vegetable and flower growing, grape and wine production, hydroponics, insulation, plasterboard, brake linings etc)... basically you are all being exposed to it pretty much all the time... given what we know about asbestos I am quite sure the companies that manufacture it and sell it will be making 100% sure there is no asbestos in it.

4. "Vermiculite sucks moisture out of the air".... I would dispute that. Why? Because I have tested it myself. This was one of the concerns I had regarding the product but I have now tested it in my own collection. I have measured the humidity using an Exo-Terra digital hygrometer in an enclosure housing a Central Bearded Dragon that was housed on Breeders Choice Cat litter. The temperature at the location I measured it was 28 degrees. The humidity read 41%. I replaced the cat litter with newspaper and did the same measurement several hours later. The humidity read... 41%. I then replaced the newspaper with vermiculite substrate taken directly from an unopened bag and measured the humidity again several hours later. It was reading.... 40%! That is a 1% drop in humdity. Just to be sure I left it overnight and check again. It was still sitting at 40%. The humidity in the room during the whole testing ranged from 44-46% humidity. It would appear on this small test basis that vermiculite does not remove water from the air.

Some other comments and observations I have noted while using/testing the product:
1. It is not messy at all. Once in the enclosure the product actually packs down quite tightly and the dragons I have had on it can walk around on it with no issues.
2. The product I have been supplied and that will be/is commercially available is of a smaller grade than that in the photos posted.
3. Any faecal/urate material deposited on it gets covered in the vermiculite and dried out quite quickly. It is then easily picked up and removed during spot cleaning.
4. I have noticed less smell in the enclosures.
5. It is not dusty. All particles under 2.5mm are removed in the manufacturing process. When pouring it out of the bags there is noticeably no dust.
6. Given its insulative properties it seems ideal for keeping heat in an enclosure and it is less of a fire risk should a heat lamp etc fall onto the surface of it.
7. It can be disposed of easily onto the garden or in the household rubbish.
8. It is using a by-product of the mining industy.
9. It looks good!

The choice of what substrate to use is a personal one and is one that often causes MUCH debate!!!
I encourage anyone to always research PROPERLY and from APPROPRIATE sources when making any decisions that could potentially affect the health of their animals.

In nutshell though I have found vermiculite an excellent substrate and have no hesitation recommending it to my clients.

Regards,
Dr. Shane Simpson
Karingal Veterinary Hospital

I didn't delete the post so that no one could see your comments Shane, I deleted it because the initial photo post was about me finding out where the substrate came from, and once I found out I felt it no longer needed to be there.
Forums are the perfect place for this information. Not on a random photo post "discussion" on Facebook.
Cheers������


And in regards to there being no dust I have actually found that there is a rather large amount of dust or small particles. There is noticeably dust on the bags it is contained in, after I have touched it there is small particles on my hand, and there was also dust in my snakes water dishes when I was using it as a substrate. So I should definitely not be concerned about this dust?

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[Rogue5861]

And in regards to there being no dust I have actually found that there is a rather large amount of dust or small particles. There is noticeably dust on the bags it is contained in, after I have touched it there is small particles on my hand, and there was also dust in my snakes water dishes when I was using it as a substrate. So I should definitely not be concerned about this dust?


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Im not sure if you can wash out vermiculite but if it was me i would try and remove the majority of the dust, i dont think inhaling it is best for you or the snake. Either wash it out or shake it over some mesh outside.


Rick

 

[HayleyChuck93]

Im not sure if you can wash out vermiculite but if it was me i would try and remove the majority of the dust, i dont think inhaling it is best for you or the snake. Either wash it out or shake it over some mesh outside.


Rick

So inhaling this dust could be potentially dangerous to myself and my snakes?
Sadly I don't think those methods would help as the dust just breaks away from the vermiculite itself.



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[Rogue5861]

So inhaling this dust could be potentially dangerous to myself and my snakes?
Sadly I don't think those methods would help as the dust just breaks away from the vermiculite itself.



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Probably not, but was just suggesting a way of reducing the dust. I would just give it a good misting once in the cage and be happy with it.

The coco coir (fiber) i use for my jungle python is a little bit dusty but i havent had an issues with him on it at all, it cleans up really easy and absorbs any waste the snake passes.


Rick

 

[HayleyChuck93]

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[Rogue5861]

I think most product with any type of dust could carry this sort of warning. Sand, paper pellets or coco coir can all produce dust and could possible cause issues.


Rick

 

[zulu]

Get rid of the vermiculite ,types of small pebbles are best as substrate if you dont like the look of newspaper and dont come with dust etc. Plant based substrates are a haven for moisture and mites.

 

[drsimpson]

I didn't delete the post so that no one could see your comments Shane, I deleted it because the initial photo post was about me finding out where the substrate came from, and once I found out I felt it no longer needed to be there.
Forums are the perfect place for this information. Not on a random photo post "discussion" on Facebook.
Cheers������


And in regards to there being no dust I have actually found that there is a rather large amount of dust or small particles. There is noticeably dust on the bags it is contained in, after I have touched it there is small particles on my hand, and there was also dust in my snakes water dishes when I was using it as a substrate. So I should definitely not be concerned about this dust?

[

Looking at the photos I would be 99.9% sure you have been sold horticultural grade vermiculite. Noticed how all the particles are different sizes. The product I have been given does not have that. They are all the same size and there is also definitely no dust like what you have in the bag and on your hands. Also when I run the product through my hands nothing comes off it in the way of dust or small particles.
The company that produces the one for pet beeding and cat litter has gone to great pains to remove the small particles as they did not want it to "track" i.e. cat goes into the litter tray and then walks the litter out of the tray and all over the house.
As far as breathing it in it will be no more dangerous than what you would get with paper pellets, Aspen snake bedding, coconut fibres etc.
I doubt you will be able to wash it because all the particles will float and it would VERY time consuming.
As I wrote above I would have no problems using vermiculite as a substrate but it appears that you need to make sure you get the right "grade".

 

[HayleyChuck93]

I got this vermiculite from SECA. I thought you had previously said to me you got the same vermiculite from the same supplier?


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[Octoborg]

http://www.exfoliators.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/VERMICULITE-CHEMICAL-ANALYSIS.pdf

The first component on the list is silica (SiO2) at 38-46%. I have found a couple of cases of silicosis in reptiles floating around the internet that have re-raised my concerns. Could you please explain and clarify to me that this will not become problematic, say, if dust is produced when the vermiculite rubbed together. Because the vermiculite did appear to work wonderfully as a substrate and I would still very much like to use it, but this will only be once I know that it is 100% safe for long-term use.

Andrew

 

[Senator358]

If in doubt, throw it out. With so many concerns I would just be done with it and use something else.

 

[andynic07]

What period of time did you trial the substrate over Shane [MENTION=13291]drsimpson[/MENTION]? Was the stuff that you were given a prototype or regular production stuff because I would imagine that they would give you the best quality product if that was in their control since it was a trial?

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

The first component on the list is silica (SiO2) at 38-46%. I have found a couple of cases of silicosis in reptiles floating around the internet that have re-raised my concerns. Could you please explain and clarify to me that this will not become problematic, say, if dust is produced when the vermiculite rubbed together. Because the vermiculite did appear to work wonderfully as a substrate and I would still very much like to use it, but this will only be once I know that it is 100% safe for long-term use.

SiO2= Sand. The stuff that makes up most of our environment.

 

[drsimpson]

I got this vermiculite from SECA. I thought you had previously said to me you got the same vermiculite from the same supplier?


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I got mine from the same supplier that I believe the person from SECA got theirs from. The supplier makes different grades (or particle sizes) for different uses. What I am suggesting looking at the images you posted is that the product you got may have been a larger and more varied particle size than the one I have i.e. is vermiculite but a different product.

 

[Rogue5861]

I heard they will be selling this at petbarn in the near future, have you heard anything about this [MENTION=13291]drsimpson[/MENTION]?


Rick