Oenpellis

[FAY]

Hi Gordo,
What have their temperaments been like? I have heard that are quite placid.

 

[saratoga]

I was just a little concerned that there may be a few isolated populations in certain areas that taking a few specimens from one area may have a dentremental affect on that isolated population if this is the case.

The Arnhemland escarpment (western edge of the Arnhemland plateau) runs for many hundreds of kilometres as it winds its way roughly along the border of western Arnhemland. These snakes have been seen from Oenpelli in the north, throughout the central area of Kakadu and also in the southern hills and basins of the park. It's pretty reasonable to assume that most of the escarpement country is suitable for them; and as it forms one quite large block of continuous habitat, hopefully any detrimental effects of taking a few individuals out would only be short term.

On the other hand if they were to occur in the small patchwork of parks (surrounded by farmland etc) which are here for example in Victoria, NSW, Queensland, then I think your concerns would be thoroughly justified.

 

[wokka]

I would think one fox or feral cat or a car, would consume over ten a year from hatchlings up, so a few harvested for breeding wont make much difference to the sustainability of the wild population.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

You can bet that if Gordo found these snakes on the road, these were the only OBVIOUS animals in the area, but there would be many others locally which weren't on the roads at the time. There is a tendency to focus on these specific animals as if they may be the only ones there, but of course this is not the case - they are just ones that were in the wrong (right?) place at that time. Similarly with GTPs at Iron Range and RSPs in the Kimberley, the only ones which are picked up are those close to where the humans are, and that may be a road in the case of GTPs and Oenpellis.

In their own habitat, away from the exposure that roads facilitate, these cryptic animals may (and obviously do) go totally undetected.

Great news Gordo & Gavin!

Jamie

 

[Bushman]

I agree with Saratoga and JP that peoples concerns about removing a few specimens for a breeding programme such as this are unfounded. Any possible detrimental effects will be far outweighed by the benefits to science, the TO's and the ensured survival of the species by captive breeding. The insights and dissemination of knowledge gained will be invaluable to our understanding of the species. Gordon and Gavin have a good attitude and noble intentions towards the snakes and the TO's, who will both benefit from the contribution that will be made to science and by generating independent income the value of the species will be far greater than tucker. Hopefully any future specimens found will be reported and data can be recorded instead of eaten. I think that this is a great initiative and I hope it's successful like it was for Morelia carinata.

 

[zulu]

The movements of these snakes at this time of year may be related to breeding activity,the new male may get it on over the next few months.
Worthwhile project to breed these animals,they could have been run over and wasted like lots of other herps.

 

[glebo]

I am happy to report that the most recent additions to the project from Gordo are all eating. That is quite amazing considering they are a fairly high stress animal and would have been a bit put out coming from the wild. This probably indicates they were a bit hungry maybe, or that they have settled in without much drama. Either way it is a good sign. I realise not everyone is going to be happy or comfortable with this project, in the same way that not everyone agrees with the idea of sustainable use of wildlife, but I still say that there are many animals in decline on the planet, including animals in Australia and unless and until people power makes something happen to ensure plants, animals and in general ECOSYSTEMS are fully functional with the remaining suite of animals safe from extinction then the best we can hope for are ad hoc, last ditch efforts to bandaid what is left before it is gone. It is all well and good to have an opinion on an animal in decline but it is whole new ballgame trying to point the finger at a person or a group when an animal has gone extinct. That is where we are at with the Christmas Island Pippestrelle (bat). It was managed to extinction very well, but noone put up their hand to actually DO anything. The same thing is happening with critters in Kakadu National Park, and again some are being monitored on that slippery slope to extinction, without anything REALLY happening to help. So I am trying to help because I have the skills to deal with a python. It then takes people who have the skills to manage mammals to do the same, similarly some of the fire affected plants. Surely it makes sense to try to do something before its too late, but it will take people like all of you to do something both as a collective and as individuals if you have the skills to do so. To sit and whinge that you dont like this project or that project is to continue the whole process - one of decline and decay in what is essentially OUR NATURAL HERITAGE. I want my son to see and be part of it, and I am working so that your children get the same opportunity. I hope to meet you at some stage if you want to help, because between us all we can make a difference, you just have to put up your hand.
Regards
Gavin

 

[Simon_Archibald]

I am happy to report that the most recent additions to the project from Gordo are all eating. That is quite amazing considering they are a fairly high stress animal and would have been a bit put out coming from the wild. This probably indicates they were a bit hungry maybe, or that they have settled in without much drama. Either way it is a good sign. I realise not everyone is going to be happy or comfortable with this project, in the same way that not everyone agrees with the idea of sustainable use of wildlife, but I still say that there are many animals in decline on the planet, including animals in Australia and unless and until people power makes something happen to ensure plants, animals and in general ECOSYSTEMS are fully functional with the remaining suite of animals safe from extinction then the best we can hope for are ad hoc, last ditch efforts to bandaid what is left before it is gone. It is all well and good to have an opinion on an animal in decline but it is whole new ballgame trying to point the finger at a person or a group when an animal has gone extinct. That is where we are at with the Christmas Island Pippestrelle (bat). It was managed to extinction very well, but noone put up their hand to actually DO anything. The same thing is happening with critters in Kakadu National Park, and again some are being monitored on that slippery slope to extinction, without anything REALLY happening to help. So I am trying to help because I have the skills to deal with a python. It then takes people who have the skills to manage mammals to do the same, similarly some of the fire affected plants. Surely it makes sense to try to do something before its too late, but it will take people like all of you to do something both as a collective and as individuals if you have the skills to do so. To sit and whinge that you dont like this project or that project is to continue the whole process - one of decline and decay in what is essentially OUR NATURAL HERITAGE. I want my son to see and be part of it, and I am working so that your children get the same opportunity. I hope to meet you at some stage if you want to help, because between us all we can make a difference, you just have to put up your hand.
Regards
Gavin

Truly well said Gavin. It's unfortunate that the negativity of people who are poorly informed and armed with no facts continues to manifest itself in our community. What is inspiring though is someone who walks in the face of that same negativity, in order to achieve a greater outcome.

My biggest regret is not being in a financially suitable position many years ago to get involved with the Varanus glebopalma project you undertook. Would have lived them. Off topic, how did that go, and are you working with other monitor species in a similar way?

Simon


Simon Archibald

 

[zulu]

I dont think there is much opposition to taking a founder population for captive purposes ,would be didley sqatt of the population anyway given that most of the habitat is intact and out of bounds for many human activities except indiginous.
The NT government has had long enough to initiate studies and theyve done stuff all so this is the most that will be learned in the foreseeable future.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Fully agree with zulu... as in WA with the RSPs and other species which will be affected by the relentless spread of Cane Toads, the bureaucrats would sooner let them go extinct than let them into the hands of keepers. Bureaucracies here have a huge resistance to putting a commercial value on wildlife, and the disappearance of species may well be on their heads as time goes on.

Jamie

 

[FAY]

I would prefer them collected from the wild and into breeding projects then down the track just see them in a museum like the thylacine, it MAY never happen, but then again, it MAY.

 

[SteveNT]

The toads will cause ruin I'm afraid cobber, I've watched the whole sorry process myself. Some animals come back, but slowly.

I'm not convinced that the oenpellis are in decline. Especially when you find 3 in a week on the little ribbons called roads. I support the project but get those 3 or 4 meter enclosures on the drawing board you mob.

 

[phatty]

The toads will cause ruin I'm afraid cobber, I've watched the whole sorry process myself. Some animals come back, but slowly.

I'm not convinced that the oenpellis are in decline. Especially when you find 3 in a week on the little ribbons called roads. I support the project but get those 3 or 4 meter enclosures on the drawing board you mob.

got mine already haha

 

[Darwin-boy]

congrats guys! fantastic find i envy you guys! wish i could come out and help look for them....

 

[waruikazi]

The toads will cause ruin I'm afraid cobber, I've watched the whole sorry process myself. Some animals come back, but slowly.

I'm not convinced that the oenpellis are in decline. Especially when you find 3 in a week on the little ribbons called roads. I support the project but get those 3 or 4 meter enclosures on the drawing board you mob.

I'm not convinced that they are under immediate threat of extinction Steve, but the anecdotal evidence definitely point to numbers being in decline. I am of the belief that they are in decline, particularly from outliers to the main escarpment. I'm quite convinced they are extinct from Cannon Hill and Border Store area, the species that never used to be recorded there that cope with fire have moved in.

You need to take the three finds in their full context- over 800 hours of field work in the area during 3 1/2 years. There are only two other escarpment species (herps) that i haven't found, one is critically endangered and the other is a species that went extinct before anyone could describe it. The hot spot surveys are telling us this too.

We both know the state of the hot season fires, weeds and ferals in Kakadu and West Arnhem. You've told me this yourself Steve, but then to say that these snakes are more or less safe in the next breath is illogical. These animals are long lived, feed very irregularly and are hard to find. We are not going to see the dramatic decline that we have seen in other short lived species. That is until it is too late.

I did think like you for a long time Steve, my reasons were similar to yours. The local people told me there were still heaps of them out there and i believed them. But like you indicated, if they are in fact safe then there is nothing wrong with sustainable use programs.

 

[DanN]

Hi Gordo,

If I may, how many carpet pythons have you found in the stone country? Not on roads, but actually in the escarpment country while looking for Oenpellis? I'd imagine they are a species that occurs up there but is very rarely seen - perhaps as rarely as Oenpellis......

Maybe you've seen lots, but my point is that it is very difficult to infer an actual decline when anecdotes are inherently filled with bias. Don't get me wrong, they could be on the slippery slope, but there isn't a lot of evidence as yet. Maybe that is Steve's point? Sweet project nonetheless.

Typed while feeling incredibly envious of all your adventures - keep it up!

Dan

 

[waruikazi]

Hi Gordo,

If I may, how many carpet pythons have you found in the stone country? Not on roads, but actually in the escarpment country while looking for Oenpellis? I'd imagine they are a species that occurs up there but is very rarely seen - perhaps as rarely as Oenpellis......

Maybe you've seen lots, but my point is that it is very difficult to infer an actual decline when anecdotes are inherently filled with bias. Don't get me wrong, they could be on the slippery slope, but there isn't a lot of evidence as yet. Maybe that is Steve's point? Sweet project nonetheless.

Typed while feeling incredibly envious of all your adventures - keep it up!

Dan

No carpets in the escarpment but we have seen them down on the river and around cannon hill. But I suspect that isn't your point. I agree the evidence is scant for a decline but I don't think the evidence that is there indicates that the population is safe. No matter how it is interpreted and I'm not just relying on my anecdotes.

 

[DanN]

Thanks, Gordo.

That was actually my point Carpets occur in the same habitat as Oenpellis, yet they are not commonly seen. Species with relatively similar spatial ecology I suspect. Therefore, the apparent difficulty in locating these things may not necessarily be due to a decline. Non-anuran eating, infrequently feeding stone country pythons are probably better suited than most to withstand the changes occurring in that part of the world.

I hope you understand I'm not trying to detract from the significance of the project - declining or not, I think what Gavin is doing is fantastic - certainly better to be safe than sorry.

 

[waruikazi]

Thanks, Gordo.

That was actually my point Carpets occur in the same habitat as Oenpellis, yet they are not commonly seen. Species with relatively similar spatial ecology I suspect. Therefore, the apparent difficulty in locating these things may not necessarily be due to a decline. Non-anuran eating, infrequently feeding stone country pythons are probably better suited than most to withstand the changes occurring in that part of the world.

I hope you understand I'm not trying to detract from the significance of the project - declining or not, I think what Gavin is doing is fantastic - certainly better to be safe than sorry.

completely understand, I don't take offence at all. I was hoping and expecting (after 3in a week) a conversation like this was going to come up.

What do you think the affects of what we are seeing with habitat destruction, weeds, ferals and crashing numbers of stone country small mammals is on one of the escarpment's top predators?

And, anecdotally, we have seen an affect on carpets from the toads.

 

[DanN]

What do you think the affects of what we are seeing with habitat destruction, weeds, ferals and crashing numbers of stone country small mammals is on one of the escarpment's top predators?

Personally? Very little. Still plenty of stone country, still plenty of places to hide from intense wildfires (crevices, caves, monsoonal vine thickets), still enough small mammals about for a large python to feed on every six months.

I also don't imagine ferals preying on Oenpellis is a big problem - apparently they are really hard to find? As for toads and your tall stories of wounded carpet pythons, anecdotally, all of the wild Oenpellis I've seen eating toads were fine...