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champagne

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I'm sure many private breeders would love the chance to help with captive breeding programs of endangered species from the 'Australian continent'- but that comes back to Gavin Bedford & Greg Miles Australian representative herp body which the hobby already seems to have destroyed. I'll stop thinking out loud now


The whole australian representative herp body thing was to much messing about and not enough action... If they just said what they wanted to achieve and what they needed from people, it would of happened. If people saw what benefits they would personally get out of it, they would get behind it. It would of been better to say we tried and failed, then to sit back and see the nsw type caging rules be forced across the board (Victoria they are coming).

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I wouldn't base the scales and tales expo on support.... I emailed them and sent messages on facebook trying to get times of your talk as I couldn't stay all day at the expo and got no reply. when I was there it was very poorly advertised when and where you would be doing the talk, maybe getting on you tube or other social networks ie reptile radio where you can reach a larger viewer range would help. I think a lot of people still question what this national body wants to achieve. I also think that it should just be done and if it falls flat on its face then at least the people involved can say we tried. Put a list together with problems this national body wants to fix or achieve and it might get more support as people might see something that affects them or something they can benefit from ie no reptile imports but maybe allowing exports this would also increase the dollar value of the hobby therefore getting larger financial support the body will need to survive long term.

This is what I posted and sent to Gavin, everything seems to be dead since.
 
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Ok, less facetious then. There seems to be an attitude that someone else needs to get it together so that the rest of the herp community can reap the benefits of an umbrella herp keepers organisation. What really needs to happen is that all of you need to join your local herp groups and societies, then combine the organisations to have a national body that they all subscribe to for lobbying purposes.

Gavin floated the idea but it is not his responsibility to move forward while we whinge.
 
Ok, less facetious then. There seems to be an attitude that someone else needs to get it together so that the rest of the herp community can reap the benefits of an umbrella herp keepers organisation. What really needs to happen is that all of you need to join your local herp groups and societies, then combine the organisations to have a national body that they all subscribe to for lobbying purposes.

Gavin floated the idea but it is not his responsibility to move forward while we whinge.

Couldn't agree more.
 
This sounds about as easy to do as a claustrophobes convention...
 
I think the problem stems from a number of issues:

1. Lazy reptile keepers who would like the idea of a national body that protects them from ridiculous legislation made by individuals with no real knowledge of reptile requirements, but who take no steps to make it happen themselves

2. The fact that the hobby is full of so much dislike for one another. Its honestly like a bunch of frat boys sometimes. Instead of appreciation, theres jealousy. And instead of combined efforts, theres attempts to hinder others at every opportunity to somehow get ahead

3. The fact that the hobby spans such a large audience. A classic car club (for example) has a very small and specific range of people. They may vary in their backgrounds of course, and their opinions in some things, but they all love and own classic cars and take whatever measures they feel necessary, and go to their own varying lengths, to continue their passion.
While you could say that its the same story with the herp hobby, Id disagree.
Were such a varied bunch, with completely varying degrees of interest and passion. For some reason its near impossible to define the 'reptile keeper' these days as its so easy for 'Joe' to go out and buy a snake, keep it, breed it, get bored and sell off everything to the next Joe. Im not saying this should be in any way changed, Im simply trying to show that this hobby is so accessible and attracts such a broad range of people that its near impossible to group them all, except that they all possess, or wish to possess, something with scales. Its makes the idea of a National body all the more challenging

4. The idea, as far as Im aware, is relatively new. Just as the hobby is relatively new in the broader public sense. The fact that reptile keeping hasnt run its course for long means that there's not yet a strong enough interest in the idea. The example of course is that if we wait another few years, and the laws for reptile keeping are tightened and things like enclosure size are nationally enforced, then the interest will strengthen overnight. What Im getting at is that the idea is a bit ahead of its time. Its like trying to convince a nation to make a preemptive strike. The average keeper wont budge until they clearly see, and experience first hand, the ramifications for not having acted sooner.

5. Perhaps a little fear. Whats to say that the heads of the national body dont take things too far. They'll be at the helm of the entire herp community. Im only postulating here, but perhaps some keepers feel thats its better to continue for as long as possible under the current rules and wait for the worst to come, than force a change and perhaps feel the consequences sooner than later

6. Some keepers either dont know the idea exists/ dont understand the reasons, or purpose of the idea/ dont care whether it happens or not. Think of it this way. Why would 'Joe' (hes popular today) care if he had to get a bigger enclosure for his pet snake. Its no skin off his nose. It only really affects keepers with larger numbers of animals and limited space/budgets. Id wager the majority of reptile keepers, most likey with fewer animals or very slowly growing collections, arent concerned at all.

Me, personally....... I like the idea. But thats mainly because I feel most of what the government does is based on how much money or support theyll receive from implementing an idea. Thats not the sort of 'Body' I want at the helm of my passion. Reason enough in my opinion.
 
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The main issue I see with support for a national body is people are sitting back waiting to see what direction it takes on the big divisive issues in the hobby before committing.
The two main issues that splits the hobby at the moment would be exotics and hybrids. I think if any body or committee was overly pro or anti on either of these issues it would half any support from the wider community and be subjected to constant undermining resulting in failure.

I think if at least initially it stuck to wider issues that most keepers would agree on, such as legislated caging requirements, undue licensing requirements/restrictions, sorting out the import/export issues and discrepancies between states and changing the notion of captive animals as wildlife, it would gather much wider support.
 
Ok, less facetious then. There seems to be an attitude that someone else needs to get it together so that the rest of the herp community can reap the benefits of an umbrella herp keepers organisation. What really needs to happen is that all of you need to join your local herp groups and societies, then combine the organisations to have a national body that they all subscribe to for lobbying purposes.

Gavin floated the idea but it is not his responsibility to move forward while we whinge.

Yes Gavin did float the idea but when he did get the support he was expecting he stopped. My point is the support is there and someone with the no how needs to do it. "Herp groups or societies" lol how did they go with the nsw caging rules? We need something more like usark and people will get behind an organisation like that.
 
As a participant in the "herp groups and societies" negotiations with NSW NPWS, I'd like to know just what your smart comment about caging rules implies champagne. Similarly I've been involved with Gavin's recent excursion into the very difficult area of uniting the varied and fragmented bunch that reptile keepers in this country are. You seem to know just what is needed champagne, so I suggest you chuck in your job, spend a few thousand bucks of your own, and weeks of your time travelling the country to canvass opinions of reptile keepers Australia-wide, and put a strategy in place for us all to follow.

It's as easy as that... but until you are prepared to do that, you're just spouting claptrap.

Jamie
 
As a participant in the "herp groups and societies" negotiations with NSW NPWS, I'd like to know just what your smart comment about caging rules implies champagne. Similarly I've been involved with Gavin's recent excursion into the very difficult area of uniting the varied and fragmented bunch that reptile keepers in this country are. You seem to know just what is needed champagne, so I suggest you chuck in your job, spend a few thousand bucks of your own, and weeks of your time travelling the country to canvass opinions of reptile keepers Australia-wide, and put a strategy in place for us all to follow.

It's as easy as that... but until you are prepared to do that, you're just spouting claptrap.

Jamie

I thought it was pretty clear but anyway I'll explain... Did the herp groups and societies have enough power to stop the bs caging rules in nsw? No so really it was just a joke and waste of time that they were there. You can cry all you want it's the facts...

As for having to travel the country canvassing opinions, there is a thing called photos, internet... Social media is a cheap and easy way to get the word out, something that clearly the people trying to get this off the ground know nothing about. Yes it would take time and money, clearly Gavin has the time or he wouldn't of bothered starting this whole thing and maybe if the message was put out there the money thing wouldn't be an issue.
 
More claptrap. It was pretty clear and frankly, pretty damned offensive considering the time & effort that a dozen of NSW's most experienced herpers put into trying to win this for keepers in this state. You have no idea what you're talking about champagne - you should change your name to plonk - something a lot less sophisticated.

Actually, plonker would be appropriate...

Jamie
 
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We need an experienced person that has not been involved in any disasters like the WA herp licensing or NSW cage standards > so previous applicants should not be encouraged to apply.
I can do the job for a company car like a mercedes ,400 K ,credit card that i can use for call girls and massages.
 
Just a bit more info on the group negotiating with NPWS in NSW, it included John Weigel (ARP), Drs Glenn Shea (Sydney Uni) and Peter Harlow (Taronga), Mike Duncan (President AHS), Gerry Swan (author), and Anthony Stimson amongst others with combined experience of around 300 years. But then, perhaps you could do better champagne... you would know so much more than these guys, and you're clearly a good negotiator...

Jamie
 
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Build it and they will come! and the organisation that does get the ball rolling needs to be as impartial as humanly possible. Somebody did attempt to get some form of a ball rolling by creating a Facebook page: "Support Page for The National Australian Reptile Keepers Regulatory Body" and they tried to remain impartial and anonymous but due to industry "big wigs" perception of this person it was slandered and the support page was shot down in flames (its still running and waiting for somebody or group to take the reins). Nobody else was willing to get off their backsides and at least highlight the idea (further than what had already been done) and get the spark happening in the minds of the wider keeper community, credit to them I think. (it was myself who created the page on the guise of handing it over to somebody willing to take it to the next step and also to show support to the idea in turn I thought highlighting the idea with the entire community) but this is sadly not what happened :(
Maybe we should get "he who shall not be named" to start the organisation and then at least somebody may get up and make one in competition or we could all join voldyhoser's body just to vote him out and take the reins from him haha.
Too much division and petty childish squabbling in the industry for this pipe dream of an idea to get any further than the ideas stage. Maybe in 50yrs when all the whiny, bitchy, immature and competitive people in the hobby are long dead and gone maybe then the idea will get a foothold and take off. USARK has it's haters and competition so what real hope do we have? I try and think positive and hope it will happen in my lifetime but it doesn't look good :(
 
I'm with you on that one chimerapro. A few years ago we tried to get the National Reptile Keepers Association off the ground, but (especially here on APS) it became extremely personal, insulting and just plain nasty that it became all too hard. So many agendas out there, and truly, not one of the original participants had a personal agenda of any kind except to promote dialogue between bureaucrats and keepers, but the insults and cries of elitism came thick and fast. Getting consensus across such a diverse and needy group with such bizarre regulations from state to state is all but impossible.

Jamie
 
I remember years ago at a Qld reptile expo John Weigel gave a talk on the same idea, loved the talk but it went no further. Gavin's talk at the last expo in Qld was poorly promoted, showcased in a very inappropriate setting and very disrespectfully talk through by many, yet I loved it also and it was a more in depth talk yet nothing has happened from there either.
 
I agree with you re Gavin's presentation - it was very disappointing for him as well. But it's an example of one of the big difficulties - Queenslanders, by & large, have a pretty good system, with limited intrusion and easy paperwork, unlike almost every other state. So Queenslanders are probably less energised than those in the other states when it comes to feeling threatened by bureaucracy, thus it's probably not the best place to start the ball rolling. WA might be a different story though - stupid regulations that reflect no conservation values whatsoever, and a very intrusive bureaucracy...

Jamie
 
Transferring all our reptiles to our own private registry and cutting out the parks and wildlife is whats needed ,at the worst they would send us to manus island or PNG.
 
I thought it was pretty clear but anyway I'll explain... Did the herp groups and societies have enough power to stop the bs caging rules in nsw? No so really it was just a joke and waste of time that they were there. You can cry all you want it's the facts...

You clearly have no idea or understanding of what actually occurred in relation to the introduction of the NSW CoPs (....that is what they are actually called....not the 'Caging Rules').

Good luck in trying to get anything at all moving........ lack of understanding and desire to want to downgrade those with significant industry experience and knowledge who fought the battle (and lost it to politics.....not fact or inability) is not going to be me with much support - particularly from those that can sort the hay from the chaff.
 
I don't think anyone is doubting the experience and effort that went into the fight against the NSW caging requirements Jaime, but at the end of the day it failed. Governments don't necessarily listen to reason and sound scientific advice. Sheer numbers, political clout and know how are unfortunately much more important.

Unfortunately we are up against government advisors who think reptile keepers are crooks and a highly organised and well represented animal activist groups. I don't think the current herp societies have the numbers even if combined that would be required to effect the change that is needed. I dare say the vast majority of keepers are not a member of any herp society. A national alliance needs to recruit from a much wider catchment area.
 
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