No night time heating following infection

[littlemay]

Hi all,

So my 3 year old python is now on the mend following a reasonably serious bacterial infection that required several months of antibiotic treatment. He has been off antibiotics for about 2-3 months now, all external lesions have healed almost completely and his behaviour, feeding and defection patterns have returned to their pre-illness state.

During treatment I had him under heat 24/7 to assist with healing. I am now wanting to move him into a larger enclosure and resume shutting off the heat at night. I am nervous about doing this so soon after he was sick.. Would it be worth holding off, or will he likely be ok without the heat at night? Keeping in mind I live in Sydney and temps in my house can get as low as 20 degrees at the moment, being winter.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Norm]

Probably something I would ask your vet.

 

[Chris1]

I'd probably keep the heat on, if youre moving it into a bigger enclosure it will have the option to pick the cooler or warmer areas anyway.
Like Norm said, good idea to ask your vet before turning the heat off at night,.....

 

[GBWhite]

Hi Littlemay,

I'd be leaving it where it is for the winter with 24/7 heat and move it into the larger enclosure after the weather warms up. Do it now and you seriously run the risk of the snake becoming ill again.

What was the bacterial infection and how was it contracted?

Can't believe people advise others to run to the vet for every single little problem when common sense can solve the problem.

George.

 

[Senator358]

Stress is one of the major causes of ri's so moving him while he is in a weakened state would not be a good idea IMO. I would keep him in a tub with 24/7 heat for a while yet.

 

[Norm]

Hi Littlemay,

I'd be leaving it where it is for the winter with 24/7 heat and move it into the larger enclosure after the weather warms up. Do it now and you seriously run the risk of the snake becoming ill again.

What was the bacterial infection and how was it contracted?

Can't believe people advise others to run to the vet for every single little problem when common sense can solve the problem.

George.

If youre referring to me, common sense would tell me that someone who has had their snake on antibiotics due a bacterial infection, and therefore obviously under the care of a vet, would ask that vet what the next steps in the snakes recovery is rather than taking the word of a bunch of keyboard vets who don`t even know what the infection was in the first place.

 

[GBWhite]

If youre referring to me, common sense would tell me that someone who has had their snake on antibiotics due a bacterial infection, and therefore obviously under the care of a vet, would ask that vet what the next steps in the snakes recovery is rather than taking the word of a bunch of keyboard vets who don`t even know what the infection was in the first place.

Regardless of what the infection was, it's common sense to keep a recovering snake on heat over winter in Sydney.

Been in this game for a very long time my friend and from years of experience, apart from a few the vast majority of vets are hopeless when it comes to herps, especially husbandry. All most of them are good for is taking money of naive new herpers.

George.

 

[Norm]

George, I respect that you may have years of experience, and I agree with your advice, but the OP doesn't have a clue how much experience you or anyone else that gives advice has unless they state it in their reply. I`m not one to run to the vet or advise others to do it, but simply find it a bit ridiculous that after months of treatment from a vet, the OP wouldn`t have asked the treating vet this same question and followed their advice as whatever they have done so far seems to have worked.
My use of the term "keyboard vet" was probably not called for.

 

[CrystalMoon]

I am not a vet, just an interested member.... What type of Python is it? Just curious is all, I know Diamonds don't like to be over heated. In saying that, I agree with keeping the recovering Python where it is and having access to 24/7 heat. Why? because to me it makes sense, it is not that I dont like vets..... It's just that where I live the vets aren't willing or comfortable in treating snakes, so I have to rely on the knowledge of the experienced members of the forum and my own research.
Hope your Python stays on the mend

 

[Chris1]

Can't believe people advise others to run to the vet for every single little problem when common sense can solve the problem.

George.

https://aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php/208212-Scale-Discolouration?highlight=infection
https://aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php/208775-Blister-Disease?highlight=infection

It certainly wasnt a 'little problem'. David is a brilliant vet who would be more than happy to answer her question over the phone or via email. Common sense would say when in doubt, contact the vet who knows the whole story.

 

[site_3678]

If its been a long time since it has healed from the infection and seems to be doing ok I would just run a second lower wat light for night and then also keep a heat mat under the hide hole or rock your snake should quite happy choose either spot for night if going to the new cage then the heat mat under the hide rock or equivalent will be a great idea because you snake will most likely want to hide for a little while before coming out and hanging around the cage if its had the infection once this time you will no what to look for to make sure it doesn't happen again if its not looking good after I little while go back to the high wat lamp at night for the rest of the winter. Above all that you no your snake better then we do so do what you think is best for it. Also some of the worst advice I have ever had was from a vet not saying there all bad but just saying the best advice you can get is generally from people who have had actual experience with owning snakes and dealing with infection rather then some one who just has a degree. O yer if u do get a heat mat be sure to chec its temp I got a cheap one once and it was way to hot!!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

By far the safest course of action is to keep heat available throughout at least the first winter following a protracted infection that will have severely compromised the snake's immune system. Even healthy snakes improperly cooled can die from their inability to fight infection caused by the natural reduction in immune response during the winter, when their metabolism is running just above survival level. Definitely let it demonstrate stable good health for at least 12 months before subjecting it to the stresses of a cold winter, but bear in mind it may not want to eat, despite being warm. This will be no problem for the 3-4 months of cooler weather.

I wanted to "like" what George said but the like button didn't come up !

Jamie

 

[GBWhite]

https://aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php/208212-Scale-Discolouration?highlight=infection
https://aussiepythons.com/forum/showthread.php/208775-Blister-Disease?highlight=infection

It certainly wasnt a 'little problem'. David is a brilliant vet who would be more than happy to answer her question over the phone or via email. Common sense would say when in doubt, contact the vet who knows the whole story.

Hi Chris,

I've just finished reading both the threads that you posted.

It seems to me that it initially was a small problem that was allowed to develop to a more advanced stage due to miss management in the first instance.

Any experienced herp vet should know that infections around the mouth has the potential to develop further if not hit in the bud straight away.

I believe the vet should have made an inspection of the area to look for (and if discovered removed) any foreign body that may have lodged around the snakes mouth. I believe he should have recommended the wound be cleaned and betadine (liquid) liberally applied daily (if not twice a day) and the snake placed on a course of antibiotics straight away.

It should have been assumed that even if no foreign body was discovered it was highly possible that faecal matter or similar may have been deposited in the wound and as such had the potential to increase the likelihood that such matter may have been deposited in the wound. It appears to me that this is what happened.

As displayed by his actions (and self admission) he didn't know what the problem was in the first instance and to me it only goes to prove my point. Unfortunately and as good meaning as they are, vets only have very limited training in herp diseases and treatment and 90% of the time the treatment recommended is trial and error (especially when confronted with something outside the box they are used to).

He must be commended for his attempts to confirm what the infection was, however from what I've read he doesn't seem to have identified the exact problem.

Cheers,

George.

Hi Jamie, I had the same problem. I tried to "like" Norm's reply but the icom didn't come up.

 

[bigguy]

Listen to George and Jamie(Pythoninfinite). Keep it warm this winter, it is not worth the risk of cooling at all. And by the way I am probably the most experienced keeper on this site, and George and Jamie are not far behind me.
Regards
Bob Withey

 

[site_3678]

Aaawww I cant like ether
George u get a like!

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Likes seem to have disappeared . I've been keeping since 1955... .

Jamie

 

[littlemay]

Apologies for arriving so late to the party, I’m sorry I have not been around to clarify issues as they came up.

Hi Littlemay,

I'd be leaving it where it is for the winter with 24/7 heat and move it into the larger enclosure after the weather warms up. Do it now and you seriously run the risk of the snake becoming ill again.

George.

By far the safest course of action is to keep heat available throughout at least the first winter following a protracted infection that will have severely compromised the snake's immune system. Even healthy snakes improperly cooled can die from their inability to fight infection caused by the natural reduction in immune response during the winter, when their metabolism is running just above survival level. Definitely let it demonstrate stable good health for at least 12 months before subjecting it to the stresses of a cold winter, but bear in mind it may not want to eat, despite being warm. This will be no problem for the 3-4 months of cooler weather.

I wanted to "like" what George said but the like button didn't come up

!

Jamie

Thank you George and Jamie for your responses, particularly in providing reasoning behind your advice. This was my feeling as well. I had intended to contact Jo and David on this matter however they are not available until later in the week. As I have only been keeping for a few years I like to make judgments on the reliability of information by cross referencing a variety of sources – veterinary and anecdotal alike. This is useful for me as it allows me to bring up issues with my vet that I might not otherwise have considered, and on the same token, bring up issues with forum members which they themselves may not have considered. Though it may seem pedantic to some, creating a thread like this allows me to be more informed when I speak with my vet, which is important to me and I feel allows for the best possible outcome.

Hi Chris,

I've just finished reading both the threads that you posted.

It seems to me that it initially was a small problem that was allowed to develop to a more advanced stage due to miss management in the first instance.

Any experienced herp vet should know that infections around the mouth has the potential to develop further if not hit in the bud straight away.

I believe the vet should have made an inspection of the area to look for (and if discovered removed) any foreign body that may have lodged around the snakes mouth. I believe he should have recommended the wound be cleaned and betadine (liquid) liberally applied daily (if not twice a day) and the snake placed on a course of antibiotics straight away.

It should have been assumed that even if no foreign body was discovered it was highly possible that faecal matter or similar may have been deposited in the wound and as such had the potential to increase the likelihood that such matter may have been deposited in the wound. It appears to me that this is what happened.

As displayed by his actions (and self admission) he didn't know what the problem was in the first instance and to me it only goes to prove my point. Unfortunately and as good meaning as they are, vets only have very limited training in herp diseases and treatment and 90% of the time the treatment recommended is trial and error (especially when confronted with something outside the box they are used to).

He must be commended for his attempts to confirm what the infection was, however from what I've read he doesn't seem to have identified the exact problem.

Cheers,

George.

Hi Jamie, I had the same problem. I tried to "like" Norm's reply but the icom didn't come up.

Hi George, I appreciate your reply however I cannot help but feel the need to defend my vet here. David and Jo are both highly experienced herp vets. David and his team were personally described to me by Dr Shane Simpson as ‘one of the best out there’. Though it is my personal feeling that culture and sensitivity tests could have been carried out at an earlier date I also recognise that humans are not infallible and that it is often very easy to see the correct solution in retrospect.

The statement that my python’s infection was ‘initially was a small problem that was allowed to develop to a more advanced stage due to miss management in the first instance’ is not supported by the pathology reports. These show that my python was experiencing a chronic and systemic infection, the initial physical symptoms of which were the manifestation of the infection moving into more advanced stages. My python had carried this infection for a long time. Your scenario that the initial mouth lesion was the root cause of a larger infection is incorrect; the lesions were rather a later symptom of a much wider and long standing issue. I do not believe in any way that David and Jo mishandled a small problem into a more serious issue.

Further to this, the decision to not use Amikacin until the later stages of treatment was a calculated risk. While it is true that my python remained on an ineffective treatment for some time, bacterial infections are not usually so resistant to Fortum and it would have been unwise to subject an already weakened animal to such a rough antibiotic until we absolutely had to. It is true that we never ascertained the cause of the infection. This is something that has caused me great deal of frustration, which I know was shared equally by David and Jo.

Once again I appreciate your reply, however I cannot accept the negative light it shines on a team who went above and beyond for me and my animal.

 

[Norm]

Gee littlemay, I wish you had of stated some of this earlier, I might not have made such a goose of myself! [emoji4]

 

[littlemay]

All good Norm, as i said, sorry i took a bit of a hiatus!

 

[GBWhite]

Hi Littlemay,

Good to hear from you.

I commend you for defending your vet so vigilantly. I too wish you'd have come back onto the thread a little earlier to save some confusion with my presumptuous assumption regarding the diagnosis.

As I said the vet must be commended for his attempts to diagnose and treat the infection but I still think it could have been nicked in the bud if he'd looked outside the box.

Can I ask how you are so certain that the infection had been present for a long time before you consulted with the vet. From what I read in your original threads it appears that it all happened very quickly. After you've been keeping for a while you'll discover that infections in snakes can happen and spread at an alarming rate if not diagnosed and treated correctly in the first place. I might add that most, if not all are associated with husbandry techniques.

Having gone back and revisited the thread, I did a bit of digging around and wonder if you or the vet might consider the bacterial infection to be Pulmonary mycobacteriosis? It is not very common in snakes but has been previously diagnosed in Ball Pythons. It is a result of either a Mycobaterium haemophilia or M marinium infection that causes ulcerating skin and occasionally pulmonary infections.

M haemophilian is often associated with husbandry (possibly from a damp substrate) more often when soil is used in an enclosure, but water containers are usually the likely source. M marinium (fish tank disease) is also associated with an infected water source such as a soaker bowl. Both forms of bacteria infection often occur as a result of an open wound coming into contact with an infected water source. Do or did you provide a pond or soaking dish in the enclosure?

The bacteria takes hold and spreads quickly not long after infection occurs so it may just be possible that if this is what it is; then it may have initially been a result of a cut or scratch from a rodent's claw or tooth at feeding time or from cage furnishings which in turn has resulted in the bacteria infecting the wound when drinking or soaking.

I'm not saying that this is definitely the bacteria causing the infection, it's just something that might be considered.

Here's a couple of links I found if your interested.


http://avmajournals.avma.org/doi/abs/10.2460/javma.2002.220.1661?journalCode=javma

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21976605

Cheers,

George.