Swollen heart in coastal carpet python. Help!?!

[JenAnderson]

Swollen heart in YOUNG coastal carpet python. Help!?!

I have a proserpine coastal carpet python, female, aged roughly 18 months.


She got a skin infection (basically, the vet told me it was scale rot) which was initially misdiagnosed as a heat burn. That, or the burn she initially had healed up nearly completely, and then that same section of skin got infected. Regardless how, this infection worsened - she regurgitated a rat eaten two days prior for the first time in her life. The skin on her belly was pink and inflamed and on closer inspection I discovered that the area around her heart was all swollen.


The vet has me giving her antibiotic injections every third day, and soaks in diluted betadine to handle the skin infection.


He took a blood test. Her white and red cell counts were at less than half what they're meant to be. And this is after a month on antibiotics (her bloods apparently say there's still an infection raging on in there).


He did some xrays - here's where it gets weird. He guessed there might be some fluid aroud her heart, but no, the actual heart muscle is swollen (thinking that the infection got into her blood and progressed to her heart), so antibiotics are helping the skin infection, though after over a month of antibiotics her skin still looks hideous, but the heart swelling hasn't gone down.


The xrays show a solid small obstruction in her esophagus and also lung damage, neither of which is consistent with the infection. My vet is confused and cant give me any answers yet.


Next she needs an ultrasound.


I have spent over a grand in a month on tests already and still no answers since its apparently very uncommon for young snakes to have heart issues like this.


Has anyone experienced anything like this or uses an excellent and reasonably priced reptile vet in victoria that they can recommend. My vet has never seen this before and its costing me a fortune when I'm convinced this has probably become a terminal case now anyway.


Thanks.

I also have photos of the swelling and the initial infection if anyone needs those to get an idea what I'm talking about:

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View attachment 311524View attachment 311525View attachment 311526

Photo 1 is initial finding of scale rot/infection.
Photo 2 is what happened to the infection during antibiotic treatment. Blisters have since been drained and scales are detaching from her belly now.
Photo 3 is the enlarged area of the heart. Which appeared out of nowhere in less than a week, I handle her often.

 

[turtle]

Im sorry but I think a decision should be made to have the animal culled.

Dan

 

[RedFox]

Contact Dr Shane Simpson at karingal vet. He has a fb page as well. He might have seen something similar.

It sounds like your python is really sick.

 

[JenAnderson]

Thanks heaps for the reference, definitely eager to get a second opinion since my vet has never seen this before.

 

[Beans]

By all means get another opinion. Shane at karingal is one of the best reptile vets around, shoot him a message on FB and make an appointment. Doesn't sound good though

 

[GBWhite]

Hi Jen,

It is quite possible that your snake is suffering from Inclusion Body Disease (IBD). Boids (Pythons and Boas) can harbour the retrovirus associated with this disease for years without the snake showing any sign of infection until it suffers from a disease/illness/condition that has a direct effect on it's immune system. Blood samples taken from infected snakes as the disease progresses will show a definite decline in white blood cells. IBD also affects the heart & lungs. Symptoms include (amongst other things) skin ulcers. poor wound healing and regurgitation.

I can't open the pics but from what I read it is quite possible that if it is IBD it has developed as a secondary infection from what appears to possibly be Septicemia. It's a disease caused by bacteria in the reptiles blood and it affects all of the reptiles body. Purplish/red spots around the stomach area in conjunction with regurgitation often indicate this condition in the first instance.

I'm not saying that it is definitely IBD it's just that given the symptoms as described I believe it may be more than a possibility and it may just be an idea to discuss the possibility with your vet. Unfortunately if it is IBD it is not curable.

George.

 

[JenAnderson]

Hey George, thanks so much for bringing this disease to my attention. It definitely fits the symptoms and I'll bring it up with my vet.

Based on the amount of damage internally I don't think she will be able to come back from this but a diagnosis would definitely help me with keeping future reptiles healthy.

Also hoping this disease isn't contagious. I have a Darwin albino too.

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Having done some reading up on IBD I'm not certain it is or isn't what Meg has - she has no neurological problems, but this disease sounds extremely contagious so ill be very careful to prevent cross contamination between my two pythons just in case! However, if she has had this for a while its possible the other one could already be infected.

 

[Lawra]

Some pythons do suffer from Cardiomegaly (enlarged heart) and info can be found on the FB page named "Reptile Quarrantine & Virus Awareness". I am unaware of a link between the condition and the scale rot/burn you have described (I can't view pics) but there might be.

Unfortunately there comes a point where treatment becomes unaffordable and only you can decide where to draw the line - taking into account the projected quality of life.

 

[JenAnderson]

The quality of life bit is a tough call because she isn't withdrawn or aggressive, she's her normal friendly self. My sensible side says its already past the point of justifiable expense - $150 animal has cost upwards of $1000 in vet bills in three months, no closer to a diagnosis and more expensive tests booked in with no guaranteed treatment or positive outcome. But she isn't acting like she's in pain or uncomfortable.

Thanks for the facebook suggestion - Ive just joined that group so when I'm accepted I will send through a message.

 

[Ramsayi]

Could also be pericarditis.
You haven't given any info on the type of antibiotic given only that it hasn't been effective.Perhaps you should be looking at trying another type of antibiotic.

 

[JenAnderson]

I suggested that to the vet, he said to just keep on with the current one and wait and see..

 

[Ramsayi]

Perhaps ask vet to get in touch with Joe Sulyok at Heathcote Veterinary Hospital who may be able to advise.From the description about fluid around the heart it could quite possibly be pericarditis and if the antibiotics so far haven't helped then it may be time to try a different type of antibiotic depending on how long the current course has ran.

 

[JenAnderson]

His initial theory was a potential fluid around the heart causing the swelling - but the xrays showed that the heart muscle itself is swollen. Ill get the ultrasound done to know for sure one way or the other, and definitely discuss using different antibiotics!

 

[mikey_mike]

Pericarditis = fluid within the pericardium (ie around the heart muscle)
Myocarditis = inflammation of the heart muscle
cardiomegaly = a large heart - usually either baggy (large chambers) or thickened muscles

From what we've been told pericarditis has been ruled out.

I have a complete absence of veterinary knowledge but a potential approach would be: just treat the stuff you can treat - ie infection & good husbandry. keep your snake comfortable & don't stress about the stuff that's beyond your control & may not be relevant. If it get's better well done. If it doesn't very sad, but you've done your best.

If anyone suggests further expensive tests I would recommend asking them how it will affect management. I think the goal should be your pythons wellbeing (& perhaps preventing spread to other animals) rather than curiosity about pathology.

Hope to hear that your snake recovers.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

Has the infective agent been identified at this time? It seems critical to me to identify the specific bug so that an appropriate antibiotic can be used. Although broad spectrum antibiotics are usually used in the first instance, sometimes they don't have the focus needed to knock out seriously pathogenic bacteria. That would be the first question I'd ask when you next speak with the vet - the antibiotic you've been using clearly is not working. (If it's an infection problem - if there's some other pathology operating - viral, tumour etc. - then antibiotics aren't going to have any effect.)

Jamie

 

[kitten_pheonix]

I was under the impression that ibd was not present in australia?
I would post this on "reptile quarrentine and virus awareness on facebook, shane simpson often gives advice on there (reptile vet in Melbourne)

 

[GBWhite]

Hi Kitten_phoenix.

As Jen has stated it may not be IBD as the snake is not showing any neurological signs.

Regardless it is here.

Have a gander at this.

George.



http://www.wildlifehealthaustralia....n Body Disease (Snakes) 27 Jun 2013 (1.2).pdf

 

[littlemay]

Has the infective agent been identified at this time? It seems critical to me to identify the specific bug so that an appropriate antibiotic can be used. Although broad spectrum antibiotics are usually used in the first instance, sometimes they don't have the focus needed to knock out seriously pathogenic bacteria. That would be the first question I'd ask when you next speak with the vet - the antibiotic you've been using clearly is not working. (If it's an infection problem - if there's some other pathology operating - viral, tumour etc. - then antibiotics aren't going to have any effect.)

Jamie

100% agree. When your vet took blood, did they ask for a culture and sensitivity test? If not, this should be a priority. By isolating the infectious agent you will be able to determine which antibiotics will be most effective.

 

[bigg_bunny]

Your snake has separate but indirectly linked problems. The primary problem is the cardiac syndrome that produced general ill health and made the snake susceptible to secondary infection [. the blood results show this ] . Anaemia is often associated with the cardiac syndrome and the low white cell count resulted in the poor immune response. The fact the heart condition appeared after initial symptoms only confused the diagnosis. The underlying cause is untreatable and antibiotics are ineffective without an adequate immune system [ as you have found ]. The enlarged heart was the cause and not the result of the multiple infections. In a young snake the prognosis is extremely grave. Hope for the best but expect the worst. If the snake`s quality of life is affected then you know what to do.