Diamond Python spending lots of time in hide rock

[Ripsnortstafford]

Our diamond python male is spending a huge amount of time in his hide rock and we're wondering if this is normal?<br>Prior to him moving to our house, his tank had no hide rock, no climbing branches etc as they were thrown out due to a previous mite infestation and never placed.<br>We promptly bought him a large URS hide rock, large climbing log and also a desert rock water dish. Since we put the hide rock in his tank he has literally not come out to spend time basking on top of&nbsp;his hide rock etc. Occasionally I have seen him curled up in the cooler end of the tank near to his water dish but he quickly moves back inside his hide rock when he sees me.<br>His enclosure is kept outside in an enclosed undercover patio area and we've been running two heat globes to compensate for the chilly winter nights. Possibly he has just been hibernating and he was getting ready to shed which he has just done on Friday just gone. He also hadn't eaten for about 6 weeks as he refused two rats previously but has since eaten the night&nbsp;after his shed.<br>Should we remove the hide rock and replace it with his climbing log and maybe some cork-bark leant up against the tank wall in lieu of a hide rock?<br>He was a very active snake prior to getting his hide rock, probably because he had nothing else to do and no where to hide.<br>We're new to herps and we'd rather be doing the best for the snake rather than the wrong thing and stressing him out. The family member who owned him doesn't live with us and we are 'snake sitting' until such time as they are settled permanently and able to care for the snake adequately.<br>Any advice would be greatly appreciated.<br>cheers Ripsnortstafford.

 

[GBWhite]

Hi,

What you describe is pretty normal especially if (as you mention) it is amongst new surroundings. I'd leave the hide in the enclosure as it obviously feels secure there. Give it time and it will come around. If the hide is at the hot end of the enclosure I'd move it to the cooler end simply because if it's nice and warm in the hide then other than investigating for a meal, there isn't much of a reason to come out. At least if it's at the cool end it will provide a reason for it to move to warm up.

Cheers,

George.

 

[arevenant]

It's fine. Probably happy to finally have a hide and feel secure again. I have a 10 year old Diamond that I almost never see out of it's hide.
Just let it be really.

 

[Ripsnortstafford]

Thanks George and arevenant for your replies and advice. We thought perhaps it could just be that Slinky was really happy and just enjoying being able to hide. We have got the hide right under his heat globe, so maybe we'll look at shifting it down the other end but right now he's just eaten and I'd rather leave him be for a while. He's just the loveliest snake, I feel very comfortable handling him and putting my hands into his tank while he's in his hide. Still getting used to getting him out and I prefer to wait until he's relaxed and has moved his head away in the other direction before touching him gently. Quite often I will gently stroke him without picking him up so he gets used to me and I talk softly to him all the time. Sometimes I just open his tank, talk to him for a bit then close his door and go away. Don't know if it helps or not. He's never struck or made any moves to strike, he's a great first snake. Very inquisitive and not to mention quite nicely patterned I think. He's been probed and is confirmed male.
Cheers and thanks, Elise.

 

[MesseNoire]

Thanks George and arevenant for your replies and advice. We thought perhaps it could just be that Slinky was really happy and just enjoying being able to hide. We have got the hide right under his heat globe, so maybe we'll look at shifting it down the other end but right now he's just eaten and I'd rather leave him be for a while. He's just the loveliest snake, I feel very comfortable handling him and putting my hands into his tank while he's in his hide. Still getting used to getting him out and I prefer to wait until he's relaxed and has moved his head away in the other direction before touching him gently. Quite often I will gently stroke him without picking him up so he gets used to me and I talk softly to him all the time. Sometimes I just open his tank, talk to him for a bit then close his door and go away. Don't know if it helps or not. He's never struck or made any moves to strike, he's a great first snake. Very inquisitive and not to mention quite nicely patterned I think. He's been probed and is confirmed male.
Cheers and thanks, Elise.

Snakes don't have ears......

Try providing a hide at both ends of the enclosure so he can choose where he wants to hide and thermoregulate at the same time.

 

[Ripsnortstafford]

Snakes don't have ears......

Try providing a hide at both ends of the enclosure so he can choose where he wants to hide and thermoregulate at the same time.

Thanks Fractal_man,
I am aware that snakes don't have outer ears, but thank you for the reminder. It never hurts to have information repeated especially when one is a self confessed newbie. Without sounding sassy or know it all, my intention in talking to him is that he does possess inner ears and can 'hear' the vibrations of my voice as well as getting used to the scent of my body when I talk to him. I've shown dogs for approximately 13 years now and I'm a firm believer in establishing a bond with any animal that shares my home and I do this predominantly through voice, touch and scent.
We've recently moved his large URS climbing log down to the cooler end of the enclosure and the structure of the log is such that he can actually coil up underneath it, in the same manner as his hide but obviously he's not as covered. I don't know if he will utilise the log, we don't really see him outside of his hide.
We like to try and handle him regularly, not only because we enjoy having him out and about but also because I think it's important to continue to establish our bond with him and his familiarity with us. What are your thoughts on lifting up or removing his hide rock to be able to access him? I have done it once before, moving slowly so as to not startle him or provoke a fear strike, but I'm not entirely sure that it's the right move. He just doesn't seem to come out so we can't get to him without moving the hide rock. This also makes it a bit difficult to remove him to clean his tank or change substrate. That was the reason I lifted up his hide rock to gain access to him, so I could clean his tank post shed and give him fresh substrate etc..
Thanks again for the advice, I greatly appreciate it.
cheers.

 

[GBWhite]

Hi again,

Having read your recent post I thought, if you didn't know already, that snakes are nothing like dogs when it comes to bonding. They don't possess the ability to recognise or display emotion and as such actually prefer to be left alone. Despite what some may try and tell you, they tolerate being handled but by no means do they look forward to it.

As you state they do possess an inner ear that is capable of detecting air born sounds (150Hz - 600Hz) which is well within the lower range of human voice but they do not understand what it is and as such do not recognise that you are talking to them. It is just part of their sensory arsenal which assists them to analyse the world around them.

The snake sensory organs for detecting both air born sounds and physical vibrations act independently but do overlap. In fact their entire body acts as an organ to pick up vibrations that in turn are relayed to their inner ear for analysis. It appears that snake use these senses in conjunction to determine the direction of an object that is causing the sound.

Not that I'm saying not to talk to it if you want. Just a little info to let you know that they can hear you but haven't got a clue as to what your talking about. They just see you as an object that expresses noise.

As a foot note, you can have a hide at both the hot and cool end but there is really no reason for one at the basking spot. Snakes are ectothermic shuttlers that move in and out of the sun (basking spot) to thermoregulate. It will move to warm up and then retreat to the hide at the cooler end until it needs to warm up again.

Cheers,

George.

ps. It's fine to lift the hide and remove him for cleaning.

 

[Ripsnortstafford]

Hi George,
Thanks for the detailed information, it's fascinating to learn about snakes from those who have in them a long time.
I totally understand what you say about them not actually understanding what I'm saying and to be honest, sometimes I don't believe that all dogs really understand what humans say rather it's the tone they respond to. But snakes are totally different again. It's a whole new animal kingdom to explore.
All feedback is great and it will hopefully go a long way towards us ensuring that Slinky is cared for properly and in an environment that he can tolerate and thrive in. As opposed to being a 'wild' snake and free to chose his own locale etc.
Please rest assured that by no means would I ever willingly or knowingly let a captive-bred snake go into the wild, just in case anyone thought my comment lent towards that bent.
Anyway, I look forward to our new shed and renovations being complete and being able to actively pursue setting up new tanks and purchasing new snakes and continuing to learn about them in the meantime.

cheers
Elise.

 

[longqi]

Snakes dont need people and dont care about a 'need to be handled'
But humans are touchy feely and want the contact
Some snakes will form what appears to be a bond with some humans
That is cool and maybe in 100years we will begin to understand why

We are very lucky living in this period of time
There is so much to learn

Example
We take snakes to a lot of schools and villages etc for education
I walk into the lounge
Clap my hands 3 times and the snakes that come to the front of the viv are the ones that go

Is that logical compared to what science says about their brains etc??
Absolutely not
But it has worked very well for me for years

So yes you should watch and learn
Reptiles continually 'break the rules'
But humans made the rules and we really have no understanding yet

 

[GBWhite]

Some snakes will form what appears to be a bond with some humans
That is cool and maybe in 100years we will begin to understand why

We are very lucky living in this period of time
There is so much to learn

Example
We take snakes to a lot of schools and villages etc for education
I walk into the lounge
Clap my hands 3 times and the snakes that come to the front of the viv are the ones that go

Is that logical compared to what science says about their brains etc??
Absolutely not
But it has worked very well for me for years

So yes you should watch and learn
Reptiles continually 'break the rules'
But humans made the rules and we really have no understanding yet

I think we've been down this road before Longgi and as I've previously mentioned science knows a lot more about snakes than you seem to think. Where do you think the ideas come from in the first place? Assumption and observation.

Can I again suggest that you when you make an observation then make the attempt to access some scientific literature on the subject and you might find an explanation for what you've witnessed.

Unfortunately, as humans we have a habit of presuming that our assumption of a act is a fact without any concise evidence and quite often what we assume is correct is proved out to confirm that it is not so.

I'd love to see some video of you walking into the lounge and clapping your hands to select the snakes you are taking with you for education.

I used to own a live reptile display business here in NSW and kept hundreds of snakes to rotate them for displays. I wish I could have got mine to do that.

Cheers,

George.

 

[longqi]

I think we've been down this road before Longgi and as I've previously mentioned science knows a lot more about snakes than you seem to think. Where do you think the ideas come from in the first place? Assumption and observation.

Can I again suggest that you when you make an observation then make the attempt to access some scientific literature on the subject and you might find an explanation for what you've witnessed.

Unfortunately, as humans we have a habit of presuming that our assumption of a act is a fact without any concise evidence and quite often what we assume is correct is proved out to confirm that it is not so.

I'd love to see some video of you walking into the lounge and clapping your hands to select the snakes you are taking with you for education.

I used to own a live reptile display business here in NSW and kept hundreds of snakes to rotate them for displays. I wish I could have got mine to do that.

Cheers,

George.

The most important thing about living animals is that science knows so little about them
Science deals with cold hard facts about the physical make up of animals
Living animals of most species, including humans, are in a gradual state of flux
This state is called evolution
So our knowledge, especially in regards to newly 'domesticated" animals is almost always changing

Do I believe there is more going on in their heads that science can prove?
Most definitely
Do I believe they can be like dogs etc??
Definitely not


100 years will tell the true story

PS if you want to blow your mind with reptile video just drop over with a video camera George?
We dont own one but everybody is welcome here

 

[Beans]

I agree with you @longqi, science doesn't always know everything.

For example, the leopard that killed the baboon and then adopted the baboons baby as her own, she brought it food and tried her hardest to care for it. She didn't eat it she didn't harm it at all, but instead treated it like it was her own cub.

Animals do indeed break rules and do things that are completely unexpected. They don't know why the leopard didn't kill the infant. It would have been a tasty appetizer before eating the adult yet she did the complete oppisate. There was also a lioness that killed a gazelle, then adopted the gazelles calf. It tried to suckle from her, and of course it starved to death but its the same thing. Science doesn't always know whats going to happen all the time. No snakes are nothing like dogs but you never know. You might wake up one day and your lizard is making you coffee and breakfast in bed (maybe not that extreme)

When it comes to animals, science is more or a guideline. You just can't ALWAYS know with animals.

 

[GBWhite]

The most important thing about living animals is that science knows so little about them.

Very true and as you mentioned in your earlier post we are very lucky to live in this period of time because, thanks to those who possess an inquiring mind, we are learning so much about them. Like I said research is more than often a result of observation.


Science deals with cold hard facts about the physical make up of animals.

Correct. How else can the reasons for an animal acting in a certain manner be proven or disproven? Innuendo, assumption and hearsay are just that. I'm sure you've heard of the saying. "Assumption makes a fool of you and me". I could say that I saw a pig fly this morning but that doesn't make it a fact. The only way one can prove anything as a fact is to provide conclusive evidence or failing that, develope an experiment that can prove or disprove it.

I'll add that; How do you think it has been established that snakes can hear airborne sounds? Put simply, someone wondered if they could, and if so, if their range of hearing was within that produced by humans. They devised an experiment that they believed would prove it one way or another, carried out the experiment and the result confirmed they could. Now, through science we know that snakes can hear airborne sound.


Living animals of most species, including humans, are in a gradual state of flux
This state is called evolution.

True again but considering that snakes have been around for a lot longer than humans, all things considered their evolutionary development should be far more advanced than what it is by now.


So our knowledge, especially in regards to newly 'domesticated" animals is almost always changing.

True again; however for an animal that has existed successfully for so long with little need for it to develop it's brain any further it's more than highly probable that snakes kept in captivity will never be domesticated as such.


Do I believe there is more going on in their heads that science can prove?
Most definitely.

Debatable, and like everyone your entitled to your opinion but without solid proof again this is just an assumption. Like you, at one time I had no idea about the way the reptile brain functioned what so ever. It wasn't until my interest was triggered that I delved into the subject and spent countless hours investigating and researching the evolution and function of all animal brains before I realised how much science knew about the reptile brain.


Do I believe they can be like dogs etc??
Definitely not.

Agree totally.


100 years will tell the true story.

I'd hope we have a better understanding of them by then as well but for the moment we can only go on currently established facts.


PS if you want to blow your mind with reptile video just drop over with a video camera George?
We dont own one but everybody is welcome here.

Thanks but regardless of your kind and generous offer I don't need to travel to Bali to have my mind blown with reptile videos. My mind gets blown by many things including reptiles on a very regular basis. If I observe or am told something I find interesting or question I can't help myself but investigate what evidence is available until I come to my own conclusion one way or the other. That's the way I've been taught. I've been educated not to believe anything I'm told or shown without confirmation. I would genuinely love to see proof of the way you allege your snakes respond to your clapping. What you've suggested about visiting Bali is just throwing the ball back into my court. You made the call so theoretically it's up to you to provide evidence. I'm sure video cameras are cheap enough over there for you to buy (or even borrow) one so you could upload some video. That way the physical evidence is there for all to review and comment.

Please understand my friend that like yourself I'm stating my opinion, one which I have developed through investigation of proven facts. I'm not trying to discredit your observations but rather just trying to encourage you to contribute to science by substantiating your observations. I'd like you to know that I applaud your dedication and the work you undertake in Bali rescuing reptiles and educating the public.

Kind regards,

George.