My jag python is a darwin or a jungle? or coastal?

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No, what they are saying is that environmental pressures over millenia can force changes in a species , so that though the same species, they suit that particular area and environment better.......
Jungle pythons are adapted to a very small and specific region.

Jags don't fit into this, without human intervention...... there would never be a jag.
 
Good handball.

Well maybe you should have just butted out and let Jamie and Wokka sort it out? I'm sure Wokka's big enough to speak for himself, I know Jamie is. Harden up Sunshine. If you can't stand the fire then you'd better get out of the kitchen. I might add that don't take too kindly being referred to as a jerk by some clown that hides behind his computer.

This right here my friends is everything wrong with this site.
I'm done, have your keyboard victory.
 
I didn't comment on jags for that reason, what I'm trying to say is although they might not be genetically different enough to warrant classification as different subspecies they still must be slightly different genetically. I think we as humans do just nit pick and try divide nature and try and fit everything into its own little box but we should still try and keep these animals that come from different areas/ niches and their genes undiluted and kept as pure as we can.

I don't like to see blanket statements like they are all the same animal from well respected members of this site and reptile community because it just encourages the dilution.
 
WHAT? I don't think so. As Jamie indicates with the possible exception of M sp sp. they can all survive quite well under the same captive conditions as outlined. Even in the wild their living requirements, as you put it, are exactly the same.

Ever consider that the reason they are the most successful Python on the Australian Continent might have something to do with their genetic ability to produce colours and patterns to suit the multitude of habitats and environments they occupy.

The method used and accepted to describe subspecies of Ozzie herps is extremely poor and open to abuse by taxonomists. They also forget that there are many other factors to consider (such as unassailable geographic barriers and isolation) when it comes to species level.

FYI I know the authors of the 1980's Synopsis that first described the Morelia subspecies and elevated others to species level and know for a fact that it wasn't actually done to just reclassify the Australian herpetofauna. It was undertaken to prove a point. The point being that the reclassification of Australian Herps needed to be done and could be undertaken by a non-academic using the very minimal accepted methods. It was submitted and accepted and as a result there was a massive outcry from the academics of the time who, in turn, unsuccessfully attempted to have it suppressed. That is why we currently have the dilemma with the Morelia sp group today.

If anyone can put up a good, intelligent argument why the subspecies and species should stand then I'm open to changing my mind.

Have a good one,

George.

Well put! I undertook research on lizards a few years ago, and this topic was hotly discussed among academics during my studies. There is genuine reasons why the taxonomic world takes time to classify species. Scientific institutions just ignore the introduced changes by these amateurs, while herpculturalists have adopted them which adds to new levels of confusion. As a rule of thumb, I usually just use Cogger for clear classifications. Wilson and Swan - A complete guide to Reptiles of Australia actually suggests that the Morelia subspecies are yet to be properly determined and they may well just be colour variations of the same species.
 
Hmmm... I don't think it's worth getting any knotted knickers over this :)! Pretty much it's all based on opinion, but some opinions carry more weight because some of the "opinionated" may have decades more experience than others. I certainly wasn't having any kind of biffo with Warwick, I just didn't really understand what he was trying to say (and anyway he's a lot bigger than me... :)!

I have based much of my opinion of the work of taxonomists on my time at the WA Museum, starting with Glenn Storr and Laurie Smith in the Herp Dep, and their work on reptiles, which in the 60s & 70s was based only on physical characteristics, scalation in particular. Glenn's demise occurred at about the same time as work on DNA and genetics was rising in importance (and popularity...), so I've seen the change from the Storr "old school" taxonomy to the slick, new DNA whizzkids style of work, and I have to say that I do get a bit cynical about what it all means to herpetology these days. Probably not much in the long-term, especially for the species concerned. I think it can be interesting, but much of it is being done just because it can be done, and serves not much purpose more than keeping people in work. Who really cares if a subspecies is visually indistinguishable from another, but DNA tells another story?

Don't get me wrong here - I'm very much pro-science in all respects, but I see a lot of ego involved in this stuff, and that may be what it's about for some practitioners. JMO.

Jamie
 
hahahaha, can only happen here.
Its a jag, its a mongrel that's all you really need to know. There are NO pure coastal jags or any other pure form of jag in OZ. They are all mongrel rubbish.
 
Yeah everyone agrees it's a mongrel, then the conversation moved to the validity of some of the subspecies.
 
Yeah Norm, its every where, just cant escape it.
 
Yeah Norm, its every where, just cant escape it.

Here is an old quote
"Give me three sentences written by the innocent man and I will find a reason to execute him"
Possible Cardinal Richeleau

No matter how you write or what you write now, everything is open to individual interpretation to twist it into what they want to read, rather than what was actually written
So I dont bother writing much any more
 
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Not sure what this question means Warwick. My guess is that you keep them at whatever temps you like, and see if they thrive over a decade. There truly isn't much difference between the needs of Diamonds or Darwins (or any other pythons for that matter), but some have niche requirements, such as extra cooling over winter for the more southern ones. My point was that colour and patterns evolve over many generations. If humans interfere with clades that would otherwise never come into contact with each other, I don't think the resulting colours & patterns can give you any definitive info on their management.

Jamie

anything that's a Diamond cross can be kept like the other Carpets,imo Pure Diamonds need completely different husbandry mate

also i would not go with the above quote of " keep them what ever temps you like,and see if they thrive over the next decade ",imo it's not very scientific or great husbandry advice

pure Diamonds need kept different to all the other Carpets mate

over here in the UK 10 or 15 years ago,people who kept Pure Diamonds the same way as other Carpets,had their Diamonds dropping dead on them at an age of 3 to 6 years,it is thought in general folk were keeping them too hot,and not giving them yearly cooling cycles,that contributed to the sudden deaths

we found giving them basking light times reflecting the season,also a correct cooling cycle from their 2nd year on,cured the sudden death of them,and i know of no cases of Diamond Python Syndrome,since the husbandry was improved

we also only feed our Diamonds 6 month of the year,as we found a fat Diamond usually led to a dead Diamond

re cooling cycle
1st of September last feed,give them 4 weeks to clear the gut

1st October drop the basking and UVB times down to 2 to 3 hours per 24 hours,no heat at night,but i like to set a small heat mat on a stat set at 50F,to give them something to curl up on should the night time temps drop too far,imo 50F upwards at night is no problem and can help with fertility

start to heat them back up end of January,offer prey February

introduce males to females for breeding mid January onwards

regards the months,please remember i'm on the opposite side of the planet,so our winter is your summer


cheers shaun
 
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With all due respect Shaun, I never suggested that Diamonds be kept as we keep the other Carpets. It is generally acknowledged that Diamonds need cooler mean temps, and I think I made this fairly clear - but through high summer here, they encounter temperatures which are very often MUCH higher than the more northern Carpets. That doesn't mean that they exploit these higher temps, in fact they behave as the other Carpet varieties do in hot weather - they bask early in the morning and retreat from the heat of the day, to emerge later or at night.

As far as "scientific" goes, your own very prescriptive management of your snakes isn't based on "science," it's based on what you THINK will be best for your animals, and this is loosely what other Diamond keepers believe mirrors their home environment, but whatever you do with your caged animals can only be an extremely rough imitation of what they experience in the wild.

I don't keep Diamonds at the moment, but if I did get back to them, I would probably follow much the same sort of management practices, but I would be a lot more relaxed than you about the timing of the seasonal events. I am far more likely these days to keep them outside, which allows them to make choices of their own. I'm getting very tired of keeping reptiles in boxes...

Jamie
 
longqi, and you point of that post is................. Come on don't be shy out with it.
 
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