Heating at night?

[pinefamily]

Just as there is no evidence, other than some anecdotal examples, for maintaining heat overnight, apart from hatchling pythons, or juvenile lizards where the overnight temp gets down to near zero.

 

[Sdaji]

Yes I agree there are extreme weather moments, if an animal can't find suitable shelter or food they perish. but you didn't mention that,, along with the "bust" scenario, there is also "boom" times, in which a species can find itself doing very well. You can't tell me that conditions that make a species thrive shouldn't be replicated in captivity.
I disagree with your statement about "evolution is not capable of making any species perfectly suited to its environment", ... the longer a species has survived for unchanged, has to be as close as it can get. Every species on this planet has evolved specifically to fill a niche role in a particular environment, of course they have their parameters, and yeah nothing lives forever, but if a species wasn't 'perfectly' suited it wouldn't bounce back after ....say, laws are changed to protect them.

The main reason our pets live longer in captivity is the same reason we as a species now live longer. Protection against heat or cold, and removal of detrimental parasitic or invasive micro-organisms, bacterias and viruses. Add quality, nourishing food, the right amount of excercise and rest, good genes and only stress that is easily coped with, and you have a perfect specimen.... well, as perfect as can be. But nothing lasts forever because this world is constantly changing.

If my dogs nuts aren't the perfect evironment for fleas, how come they do so well there?

Its also perspective,.. if your glass is half empty, nothing is perfect

It's not just in extreme or unusual conditions that animals have to cope with unfavourable conditions in the wild. Not by any means. If you were to, for example, stick a heated hide box out in a forest, many animals, especially reptiles would use it in the cooler months (no one would argue that) and they would benefit from it. Polar bears *can* (usually) survive the long winter by hibernating, but it's a huge struggle and they do better without it.

A species may exist unchanged for a long period of time (though that very rarely happens), but even then, it is not because it has become perfect, it is just because it has become as good as it can get, and there will always be changes going on even if you can't see them.

You yourself say that they live longer in captivity due to protection from heat and cold We are capable of giving them a superior thermal environment to nature. You also point out that we protect them from pathogens and parasites, which are part of the natural environment. Just like unfavourable weather, food shortages, etc., parasites and pathogens are part of the natural environment which animals *cope* with, not an environment which is perfect for them.

Using your flea example, they live well on dogs because they have evolved to, but that doesn't at all make a dog the perfect environment for fleas. Dogs have various methods of fighting fleas, ranging from scratching and biting through to chemical properties in their blood which make it as toxic as possible for the fleas, and properties of the skin and fur to make it less hospitable to the fleas. The fleas do quite well, but if you were to stop the dog from scratching, biting, rolling around in mud, etc., they would do better. If you were to genetically alter the dog to remove the nasty properties from the blood, the fleas would thrive much more, breeding faster, growing better, and generally being more successful. Even the thermal environment on a dog is not perfect for fleas - a dog runs around in a range of temperatures, and the fleas would be happiest with a constant temperature of (I'd have to look it up and this is only an estimate) about 32 degrees. They must *endure* the natural range of 10 to 40+ degrees, which is natural but gives them no benefit, only harm.

It's not about glass half empty or half full If something is perfect, nothing can be better. If we kid ourselves into thinking we have found perfection we will never strive for anything better Your glass is half full, but if you think it's absolutely full so you'll never put anything more in it!

Natural environments are never, ever perfect for any animal. If you study ecology you'll very clearly see that

 

[Wokka]

In the wild nature allows the strongest to survive, and the weak perish. In captivity we expect everything to survive often intervene to save weak and imperfect animals that would normally perish in the wild. In captivity we take the environmental choice from the animals and chose the conditions in which they must live. If the captive cage is in a stable environment, such as an insulated house in Brisbane, then most pythons would be fine without heat at night. If the captive cage is in a tin shed in Brisbane, then it will have little thermal mass nor insulation and so experience the extremes of the environment, and I would expect the python inhabitant's days are numbered. There will always be individual animals that can survive extreme environments better but, when we keep every animal alive in captivity over time we are perpetuating the weaker animals, which would normally perish it the wild.

 

[cement]

A species may exist unchanged for a long period of time (though that very rarely happens), but even then, it is not because it has become perfect, it is just because it has become as good as it can get, and there will always be changes going on even if you can't see them.

You yourself say that they live longer in captivity due to protection from heat and cold We are capable of giving them a superior thermal environment to nature. You also point out that we protect them from pathogens and parasites, which are part of the natural environment. Just like unfavourable weather, food shortages, etc., parasites and pathogens are part of the natural environment which animals *cope* with, not an environment which is perfect for them.

Using your flea example, they live well on dogs because they have evolved to, but that doesn't at all make a dog the perfect environment for fleas. Dogs have various methods of fighting fleas, ranging from scratching and biting through to chemical properties in their blood which make it as toxic as possible for the fleas, and properties of the skin and fur to make it less hospitable to the fleas. The fleas do quite well, but if you were to stop the dog from scratching, biting, rolling around in mud, etc., they would do better. If you were to genetically alter the dog to remove the nasty properties from the blood, the fleas would thrive much more, breeding faster, growing better, and generally being more successful. Even the thermal environment on a dog is not perfect for fleas - a dog runs around in a range of temperatures, and the fleas would be happiest with a constant temperature of (I'd have to look it up and this is only an estimate) about 32 degrees. They must *endure* the natural range of 10 to 40+ degrees, which is natural but gives them no benefit, only harm.

It's not about glass half empty or half full If something is perfect, nothing can be better. If we kid ourselves into thinking we have found perfection we will never strive for anything better Your glass is half full, but if you think it's absolutely full so you'll never put anything more in it!

Natural environments are never, ever perfect for any animal. If you study ecology you'll very clearly see that

Well you've re written basically just what i am saying.

Like I said, there are parameters in which every species lives between, add extreme this or that (which goes outside those parameters),, and it suffers, which allows further invasion or infection from other species that prefer the environment of said species now it has lower immunity function. Makes it closer to perfect for them but less perfect for the host:cry:

I'm not saying that living in the wild is a perfect scenario, but then again maybe it is...
What you are saying Sdaji, is that there is adversary everywhere (and you are correct), and what i am trying to say, is that I do agree, but even in a constantly changeing world, there are perfect moments. For example "boom" times where the flea lands on a dog that has only three legs and a bucket on its head.

Like I said, natural things can be as close to perfect as they can get.
Getting back to the original post I made though... to the OP, research the natural conditions for the species you want to keep, and use that as a basis for your methods. Don't keep a diamond python like you would keep a north western!

I've spent enough of my half a century on this planet in the wild, to know that natural environments aren't perfect, don't need a degree to work that out, in fact i would rather find out for myself by putting myself in that situation then being told the answer by a professor.
Thats why my glass will be forever half full with plenty of room for more.

 

[kingofnobbys]

Just as there is no evidence, other than some anecdotal examples, for maintaining heat overnight, apart from hatchling pythons, or juvenile lizards where the overnight temp gets down to near zero.

Granted, it really comes down a choice for the keeper/carer. My pets lizards are very spoilt ( I guess ).

I feed my reptiles their insects in the evening, just before our diner time, it probably helps them to have access to a cozy warm place to sleep , especially if it's cool overnight, they can process the proteins and fats from their live insects better, even though their lights are timed to switch off automatically at 9:30pm Standard Time (giving them at least 2 - 3 hours of radiant heat and UV for metabolisation needs after feeding.

I have observed they (my pet skinks and dragons) often sleep ontop of their hides or in the cool side of their enclosures in summer, whereas they will make more regular use of the cozy heated hide when it's cooler at night time.

Also , as Wokka stated , as consequence of many generations of inbreeding and their very restricted captive bred genetics , and human intervention (to keep pets and breeders alive), captive bred reptiles tend to be weaker than their wild cousins, and so probably need all the help we can give them , whereas a wild reptile might brush off extremes , a captive breed reptile is more likely to become ill if exposed to the same conditions.

 

[Wally]

Wild/captive.

There are no two arguments that can reconcile both.

 

[Bluetongue1]

@Raebiez. The temperatures IN YOUR enclosure are what are relevant. If you want to put a figure on it, unless your temps are consistently dropping down to less than 20[SUP]o[/SUP]C, it is not necessary to provide night time heating. A regular overnight drop of 5 degrees or so in floor temps is not a problem and, as Sdaji stated, can help to reinforce the day/night cycle.

When referring to the temperatures that reptiles experience in the wild, it is important to bear in mind that they thermoregulate behaviourally (as kingofnobbys pointed out through examples). Snakes can and do survive in places where daytime temps can, and do, get well over 40[SUP]o[/SUP]C, or where they drop to sub-zero at night. Any snake exposed directly to these temperatures would quickly die. Clearly, one needs to be careful about not making false assumptions when drawing such parallels.

As for evolutionary fitness... the simple fact is many more young are produced than can possibly survive. Take a pair of geckos that produce two clutches a year for three years – that’s very low fecundity. To maintain the population (replacing the adults) only 2 out of the 12 offspring can survive. To put it another way, over 80% must die. Now do the same arithmetic with pythons which can produce hundreds of offspring during their breeding years. There is a very real struggle to survive in the natural world.

It is not all about the ‘weak’ and ‘strong’. There is a large element of luck involved here and many fit (‘strong’) animals perish through no fault of their own. For example, an unfit (‘weak’) animal lucky enough to locate a meal, but unable to capture it, will perish. Fit animals unlucky enough not to locate a meal (which they could have captured) will also perish. If a captive born animal thrives in captivity then there is a very good likelihood that, if it had luck on its side, it would do likewise in the wild.

 

[kittycat17]

Personally I don't know if it's 'correct'
All my animals are on thermostats so if it's hot during the day heating is turned off

I do heat at night but drop it down.
In winter adults get dropped down lower to cool them, while they still get daytime heat because a good chunk of my animals still eat while being cooled (well the females anyway lol)

I keep at 31 during the day
Around 26 at night for animals over 1 year
Under that and there on 24/7 heat unless it's to hot.


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[Dopamel]

i only heat at night with midnight lighting if my reptiles have a respiratory infection, as the local reptile shop keeper calls it "melting the bacteria away"