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ViperReptiles

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So I'm in the process of building a snake rack, I've watched quite a few videos about them and although they all tell me about heating and all of that, none say anything about lighting. What are your opinions on lighting for a snake? Do you think they need a UVB Light?
 
As much as I'd love to have a Diamond Python, it won't fit in the rack that I'm building :( but I will get one eventually because they're beautiful!
 
There's actually no reason to believe that Diamond Pythons need UV any more than other snakes, which is to say that it's highly unlikely. Diamonds are only a regional Carpet variation, and being, together with the SW Carpet, the most southern of species, are probably kept too warm by those not familiar with the species and the cooler regions they inhabit. They do thrive in outdoor aviaries in appropriate areas, probably because of the greater rang of temperatures they experience throughout the year.

Some very experienced Diamond hands on APS have also suggested the possibility that DPS (Diamond Python Syndrome) may be caused by a pathogen such as a virus, because there seems to some evidence of it being contagious.

UV won't do any harm to snakes, but it's not necessary for good health.

Jamie
 
I tip my hat to you both, Wokka and Jamie. I had read that, while not absolutely critical, UV was beneficial for diamonds.
 
There's actually no reason to believe that Diamond Pythons need UV any more than other snakes, which is to say that it's highly unlikely. Diamonds are only a regional Carpet variation, and being, together with the SW Carpet, the most southern of species, are probably kept too warm by those not familiar with the species and the cooler regions they inhabit. They do thrive in outdoor aviaries in appropriate areas, probably because of the greater rang of temperatures they experience throughout the year.

Some very experienced Diamond hands on APS have also suggested the possibility that DPS (Diamond Python Syndrome) may be caused by a pathogen such as a virus, because there seems to some evidence of it being contagious.

UV won't do any harm to snakes, but it's not necessary for good health.

Jamie

Hi Jamie, I recently asked Shane Simpson about diamond python syndrome and was told it's a complete fallacy and that there is no such thing as diamond python syndrome. That its a made up term doctored by keepers that wanted to put a name to their husbandry issues. I don't suppose you have a link or can direct me to where you sourced your information that DPS is a real condition, and that there is evidence that it is contagious.

thanks.
 
I'm in the camp that it is a pathogen / virus too. When you step back the read the many personal accounts on DPS, it doesn't make sense that it's husbandry issues, many who have experienced it were / are very experienced keepers. As mentioned above diamond pythons are carpet pythons, if uv was a requirement than all the carpets would, such a change in requirements just doesn't happen to one species and not in its very very close relatives. There was a thread about it in APS a few years ago now of any account where a Newcastle (I'm think) keeper was keeping his diamonds in an outdoor aviary and one by one his diamonds got it. All obviously had access to natural uv and kept within their range but that made no difference in the end. Look at the viruses we now know exist and have a name too, going back 10 - 20 yrs ago I bet these too were put down as husbandry issues.
 
I also believe DPS is completely in people's minds. Just imagine how many husbandry variables could have lead to the demise of snakes in a captive environment. Until there is concrete evidence to prove it's not a husbandry or environmental (tainted bedding) issue no amount of personal opinion will change my mind.

I also have a gripe with people calling Diamonds "cold climate" snakes. Yes they inhabit some mild areas in their southern distribution but they also inhabit some pretty hot climates too.
 
A few things... there are some characteristics of (what we refer to as) DPS which seem to be more common in this "variety" of Carpet - the muscle wastage and brittle bones, and the relentless decline to death, which are rarely (or at least far less often) seen in other "varieties." Certainly other species/varieties die from a whole range of husbandry-related causes, but these characteristics are not common or as consistent as they are with Diamonds.

As far as living in hot climates is concerned - this is not true. They certainly do have periods in their seasonal lives where extreme heat is possible, but generally the temperature averages along the coast where Diamonds live (on the eastern side of the mountains) are temperate to coolish, with potentially very cold winters, especially at night. A few weeks of high summer temperatures doesn't make a climate hot.

If I recall, the earlier discussion on DPS was encouraged by serpenttongue (don't think I've seen him/her here for a while)... you may be able to correct me if I'm wrong Patrick or Stuart.

Jamie
 
Diamonds are the most southern living species of python IN THE WORLD. To say they inhabit warm climates is a fallacy, they inhabit areas that can produce extreme conditions on both ends but their general temperate climate is quite low compared to other M. S. varieties...

As for UV - there's no evidence to suggest its beneficial, but it isn't going to do any harm, so entirely up to you IMO.
 
So the only evidence is the testimony of a handful of keepers, there is no scientific proof of the conditions existence. why is it that diamond pythons can be kept by keepers in Darwin, Cairns ect were the day time temps are in the thirties year round, humidity it over 70% yet they have problem free animals? they cant all be kept in air-conditioned rooms 24/7. if the diamond python is just a carpet variation then just like other carpets it should be quite capable of living in similar conditions as all other sp. If all east coast carpets are genetically the same animal then there is no way this one 'sub species' is the exception. funny how escaped coastals have been found in Melbourne doing quite well, but a diamond would struggle were a coastal would be found. dosen't make sense to me. interesting topic non the less.
 
5hane, the problem is people rely on dated information from old school keepers rather than logic or scientific proof. Richard shine published his clinical findings on all of Australian python's preferred body temperature and there was a tiny 1.5 degree variance between ALL pythons, and if memory serves me correctly it was bredli who had the highest preferred body temperature with M. sp. sub species having 0.x variance.

There is no difference in Morelia spilota sub-species, they are geographical variants of the same species with differing phenotypes. Why can't people accept that? Biologically they are the same snake.
 
Yup, I've noticed over my years of keeping that Bredli love a bit more heat than others.
I've kept a few at roughly 35-36c day time temps when living under certain house floor plan restrictions, and they've thrived...
 
Interesting... quite a few keepers I have known over that past 40 years, from the time I was working in Darwin at the Museum, with the late Graeme Gow, have tried again and again to keep Diamonds in the Territory. It seems, from anecdotal evidence from these very experienced keepers, that Diamonds may survive for between 2 and 4 years, and then kaput... It's the same with Red-bellies and Tigers. Of course I could have just made this up... I have a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about...

I would be very happy to conceded this point if you can show me keepers who have kept and bred Diamonds for a decade or more in the Territory.

"Dated info from old-school keepers" indeed... how patronising you are.

Jamie
 
Interesting... quite a few keepers I have known over that past 40 years, from the time I was working in Darwin at the Museum, with the late Graeme Gow, have tried again and again to keep Diamonds in the Territory. It seems, from anecdotal evidence from these very experienced keepers, that Diamonds may survive for between 2 and 4 years, and then kaput... It's the same with Red-bellies and Tigers. Of course I could have just made this up... I have a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about...

I would be very happy to conceded this point if you can show me keepers who have kept and bred Diamonds for a decade or more in the Territory.

"Dated info from old-school keepers" indeed... how patronising you are.

Jamie

There is no argument that you're a wealth of knowledge Jamie and have kept and worked with reptiles longer than I have been alive ;) but in saying that speculating that DPS is a real condition with the absurd remark of it being 'contagious' with absolutely no evidence to back such claims up apart from 'word of mouth' pretty much shows you are commenting on something you know nothing about. there is no proof whatsoever that it exists, stat. I guess yowies, bigfoot and the loch ness monster exist since there is a handful of people and some 'anecdotal evidence' that say it's so :p

here's Dr Shane Simpsons response to my question regarding DPS...

1/19, 10:33pm
Shane SimpsonHi Shane,

In my humble opinion "DPS" does not exist. I see keepers make claims that they had a snake with this yet when I ask what testing was done on it (of any sort) they always say nothing! I strongly suspect that snakes "with" DPS all have something wrong with them and that is it actually a variety of issues but because keepers don't investigate properly an actual diagnosis is never made. It is easier (and cheaper) to say it just had DPS! There is NO medical evidence of this condition. Temperature is also blamed but I have seen plenty of Diamonds that when basking have a body temp higher than 30 degrees... it's a fallacy!Regards,Shane








 
speculating that DPS is a real condition with the absurd remark of it being 'contagious' with absolutely no evidence to back such claims up apart from 'word of mouth' pretty much shows you are commenting on something you know nothing about. there is no proof whatsoever that it exists, stat. I guess yowies, bigfoot and the loch ness monster exist since there is a handful of people and some 'anecdotal evidence' that say it's so :p


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The way I read all of that, 5hane, it suggests that no one knows yet for sure, even Shane Simpson, and until a definitive diagnosis is available, surely part of the evidence base comprises input from keepers who have experience with the species. Jamie did not put his comments forward as THE answer - he just reported back on other comments he's heard, which may or may not prove to have some basis in fact. Just sharing info; it might not fit your interpretation, but sharing info is the way we learn.
 
Interesting... quite a few keepers I have known over that past 40 years, from the time I was working in Darwin at the Museum, with the late Graeme Gow, have tried again and again to keep Diamonds in the Territory. It seems, from anecdotal evidence from these very experienced keepers, that Diamonds may survive for between 2 and 4 years, and then kaput... It's the same with Red-bellies and Tigers. Of course I could have just made this up... I have a habit of commenting on things I know nothing about...

I would be very happy to conceded this point if you can show me keepers who have kept and bred Diamonds for a decade or more in the Territory.

"Dated info from old-school keepers" indeed... how patronising you are.

Jamie

Oh dear, playing the victim because people don't agree with you. Very mature.

The information is dated, as can be seen by thousands of people keeping animals outdoors where it was once thought impossible. The advancement of keeping and breeding techniques and methods are also an indicator that the information is dated.
 
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