Snake Hook

[Shunco]

Hey guys,

I have been using a snake hook on my childrens python for picking her up out of her enclosure. I feed her in her enclosure as well. Was just curious should I continue with using the hook or should I start getting her used to being picked up by hand?

Cheers.

 

[Herpo]

It's up to you. Feeding in cage doesn't make a snake aggressive. I feed Popeye in cage and the only time he has bit me in the past six months was when I tried to pick him up after handling a rat. The end result, whether she is removed by hook or hand is the same...she is being handled.

 

[Iguana]

As Herpo said, feeding her in the cage won't make her aggressive. However, as long as you handle her regularly and make sure that you don't only open the cage door at feeding time, it won't condition her to bite as soon as you reach in there.

It's better to get them used to handling without the hook as soon as possible, and get her used to your scent and being in your hands. However if you're nervous about being bitten, continue to use the hook or look into getting gloves. Or, use both the hook to move her head away from your hand, and pick her up by the bulk of her body by hand. This is the method I use for my young Diamond.
Hope this helped, good luck.

 

[Shunco]

Thanks guys, yeah Im not worried about being bitten but I have read it can cause them pain/injuries is this true? She coils up like shes going to strike wjen I go to get her out even with the hook but shes never stuck at the hook so maybe she's just acting tough

 

[Tinky]

My guys are a little cage defensive, so I use a hook to lift head area before using my hand to pick up the rest.

Once I have the process started the hook gets dropped, (at over 2m they can be difficult to mauver if they are reluctant to come out for a play).

 

[Iguana]

It's not ideal for them to bite you, but the only time it will cause injury to the snake is if you pull your hand/arm ect back, after the snake has bitten. This not only digs their teeth further into your skin (as they are re-curved) but as you pull away (usually sharply, mostly due to it being a reflex) it can cause injury to their jaw, or rip out teeth, which can cause infection.
As long as you avoid pulling away sharply after the bite, both you and your snake should be fine

 

[Shunco]

Thanks Iguana! Good to know I might try the hook to direct the head away pick up for the next few times and slowly do away with the hook. I want to eventually get another python maybe the carpet variety so I need a lot more practice if Im going to take that road it seems lol.

- - - Updated - - -

Ps... From experience can a 2 month old childrens python even break the skin?

 

[Herpo]

Pyton teeth a very sharp, so she could break skin. But you'd probably bleed so little, if at all, you wouldn't know it was there.

Develop a routine is my advice. Popeye knows that he gets weighed before being fed. I can handle him as much as I want in feeding day, until I weigh. After that he enters what I kindly refer to as "kill everything in sight" mode.

 

[Stuart]

Personally I don't use hooks but that's just me and last I read and learnt it still wasn't a "by the book" method. Until you are comfy picking it up without the hook or even if you always want to use the hook, as long as you are gentle and handle the snake in a manner that won't see it pinched between the hook and enclosure of falling off the hook to get hurt then that's fine. Building confidence takes time so its good you are taking the time out to find out the good, bad and ugly consequences of different methods

 

[pinefamily]

You need to be able to "read" your python, to judge its mood and temperament at any time. We only use a hook with a couple of ours that we know aren't keen to be handled, and can sometimes get a little cage defensive. Other than that, we just pick them up by hand.

 

[Shunco]

Sweet! Thanks guys it's so good to be able to ask these questions and not get flamed like a lot of forums out there. I'll update you guys on my progress Thanks Stu, yeah I have wanted a snake for so long did a ton of research but till you own the real thing all that research doesn't give you experience hey! I keep reminding myself I have only had her for less than 2 weeks so I will get there.

 

[Stuart]

Sweet! Thanks guys it's so good to be able to ask these questions and not get flamed like a lot of forums out there. I'll update you guys on my progress Thanks Stu, yeah I have wanted a snake for so long did a ton of research but till you own the real thing all that research doesn't give you experience hey! I keep reminding myself I have only had her for less than 2 weeks so I will get there.

It can be overwhelming, I have a few years of experience (no where near as much as some) and I learn new things all the time. Trick is to make sure you are always open to learning as you can never know it all despite what some others might say.

 

[Bluetongue1]

Snakes are more capable of learning than most people give them credit for. Herpo, your routine is a classic example of operant conditioning. Your snake is going into feeding mode without the usually required stimuli of sighting or smelling tucker, because it has learned to associate being weighed with being fed. Just like Pavlov’s dog. Shunco, establishing one routine when feeding and a different one when taking the snake out, will allow it to learn to recognise what is about to happen. Something as simple as which side of the enclosure you stick your hand in can make a difference. The important thing is to be totally consistent in the two different routines - present different stimuli to associate and respond to.

Even a bite from a hatchling python can draw a surprising amount of blood. The reason is that python's have long, fine teeth that readily penetrate to the dermis and even subcutaneous layer of the skin. These layers contain a multitude of capillary blood vessels. The longer the tooth, the more blood vessels will get ruptured as it penetrates down through the layers. This explains why a python bite often resulting in a surprising amount of initial bleeding. At the same time, the nerve ending for pain are quite scattered throughout these layers and are often not pierced by the fine teeth. This can result in little if any pain with a bite. Note that the same does not hold for the stouter teeth and stronger jaw muscles of large pythons -where you usually get plenty of blood and pain.

The danger to the snake of biting someone is that by by reflex action, a bitten person may pull away suddenly and break off quite a number of the teeth. These will regrow, but it can’t be a lot fun for the snake to lose a significant number in one hit.

Rather than using a hook or glove, you can try covering your hand in a pillow slip to get a hold on the snake to take it out. Once out, let it willingly slide into your other uncovered hand, of its own accord and in its own time. Persisting with this technique can overcome ‘cage protective’ behaviour in many cases. It does however depend on what else might be happening.

 

[Herpo]

Snakes are more capable of learning than most people give them credit for. Herpo, your routine is a classic example of operant conditioning. Your snake is going into feeding mode without the usually required stimuli of sighting or smelling tucker, because it has learned to associate being weighed with being fed. Just like Pavlov’s dog. Shunco, establishing one routine when feeding and a different one when taking the snake out, will allow it to learn to recognise what is about to happen. Something as simple as which side of the enclosure you stick your hand in can make a difference. The important thing is to be totally consistent in the two different routines - present different stimuli to associate and respond to.

Even a bite from a hatchling python can draw a surprising amount of blood. The reason is that python's have long, fine teeth that readily penetrate to the dermis and even subcutaneous layer of the skin. These layers contain a multitude of capillary blood vessels. The longer the tooth, the more blood vessels will get ruptured as it penetrates down through the layers. This explains why a python bite often resulting in a surprising amount of initial bleeding. At the same time, the nerve ending for pain are quite scattered throughout these layers and are often not pierced by the fine teeth. This can result in little if any pain with a bite. Note that the same does not hold for the stouter teeth and stronger jaw muscles of large pythons -where you usually get plenty of blood and pain.

The danger to the snake of biting someone is that by by reflex action, a bitten person may pull away suddenly and break off quite a number of the teeth. These will regrow, but it can’t be a lot fun for the snake to lose a significant number in one hit.

Rather than using a hook or glove, you can try covering your hand in a pillow slip to get a hold on the snake to take it out. Once out, let it willingly slide into your other uncovered hand, of its own accord and in its own time. Persisting with this technique can overcome ‘cage protective’ behaviour in many cases. It does however depend on what else might be happening.

Well, I doubt another explanation is needed!

Thanks Mike, I didn't know why snake bites made you bleed so much! Your explanation is great, I have learned a lot! Once again, your presence in the community proves a blessing!

 

[Bluetongue1]

Thanks for the vote of confidence but it falls a long way short of that. Just have a different way of going about things, which can be both good and bad, depending.

 

[GBWhite]

The topic regarding snakes intelligence and their ability to learn is a topic that is often debated amongst herpetologists and the opinion is very much divided and to infer that snakes are capable of learning is a pretty broad statement without concise and reliable evidence.

I know we've been down this path before Michael and just to get this straight from the get go, this is not a shot at you personally it's just that my opinion differs because of my understanding of snake behaviour over years of observation and that to my knowledge there is no real evidence available to confirm that snakes are capable of learning as you suggest. Anecdotal yes but nothing real.

Please anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but to my knowledge there has only been one experiment to determine if snakes were capable of learning and from memory there are some aspects related to natural snake behaviour and anatomy that was not taken into consideration, these include a snakes natural, genetic instinct to be inquisitive and the very powerful vomeronasal (jacobson's) organ (which relay chemical signals to the brain where they are deciphered by the olfactory organ).

It is what I consider to be a rather poorly conducted and inconclusive experiment undertaken by neuroscientist Dr David Holtzman in the late 1990's where he basically placed some corn snakes in an enclosure having a number of holes with one leading to a hide. Coloured tags marked the direction of the correct hole. One the first occasion the snakes wandered around the parameter of the enclosure looking for a means of escape (natural instinct) before being guided to the marked hole by people using their hands. They took an average of around 10+ minutes to locate the hole with the hide using this method and after a number of attempts over a period of a few days most whittled the time down to about 7 minutes and a couple only took about 30 seconds. This lead the author to assume that the snake learnt to associated the hole with the coloured tag using their sight alone without consideration that the snakes may have been using scent trails left by either themselves and/or the other snakes. I also wonder how long it would have taken the snakes to locate the appropriate hole in the first instance, if at all, without assistance of people.

There's no doubt that snakes use chemical signals to recognise objects and probably humans but it appears to me that the experiment lacked proof that snakes can learn.

I also ask the question that, "Considering snakes evolved many millenniums ago (well before other vertebrates), and have remained unchanged, and could be considered to be one of, if not the most successful predator on the planet. Why would they suddenly need to develop the ability to learn anything?"

I'd also add that "Why wouldn't a captive snake learn that they are provided with a safe environment to live and have food provided to them on a regular basis rather than escape if and when the opportunity arises?"

Cheers,

George.

 

[Bluetongue1]

George, we obviously differ significantly in our definitions and understandings of the term ‘learning’. There is no point debating the subject, as starting from different premises we can never expect to see eye to eye.

 

[Shunco]

Went down to my local pet store today. They sell jungle jags so I got talking to the chick in the reptile section and made out I had a bit more experience than I do, she asked if I wanted to hold a jag. They were 6months old and pretty fiery lol got bit half a dozen times and didnt flinch as I had quite an audience lol then realized I was way over reacting to.my baby childrens hahaha nothing like facing your fears to conquer them. All for free as well

 

[Herpo]

Be careful with jags though. I've read the main triggers of neuro in an otherwise healthy snake is strong chemical presence or heavy stress.

Sounds like a cool experience, Popeye was quite fiery at first as well.

 

[Shunco]

Yeah it was an experience for me lol.

What do yoU mean about the triggers part of your comment herpo? They are an imbalanced animal? Lol