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Snapper

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Hi everyone.Haven't kept anything for over ten years. Have had a pygmy beardie for the last 7 months. It is an adult. Previously i would have allowed it to hibernate. i was originally taught to not hibernate for the first year in the case of babies and then hibernate after that.

after a bit of research on the net, i haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer to this question. So my question to you guys/girls is what is the current theory on hibernation. Should i hibernate an adultor not. If so,for he same time duration as say a beardie in the wild or for a lesser amount of time.

Thanks in advance for your replies.
 
You will never be able to make them hibernate on account that they dont....
They do brumate though. Because its part of their normal cycle, I do it for adult specimens.
 
I do not believe it is not necessary for them to go into brumation over winter , keep a long day cycle and keep them warm and the food coming and they will stay active.

I think breeders encourage brumation in the belief it will promote more successful breeding (larger clutches).
 
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It's more to reduce obesity than anything if they arent breeding. So many snakes are stuffed full, all year round which isn't ideal.
 
No wonder i can't find any info on it when i call it the wrong thing. I will do a bit more research. If it will not affect Croc (it's name) adversely if i don't do it it i won't as i selfishly don't want to not have it sitting in the lounge room staring at me when i get home from work.
 
You can leave it in the lounge. Brumation means that they slow down in winter. But they sill will bask and such. If they are young animals, dont do it this year and that gives you plenty of time to read up about the process.
Basically this is what I do for my carpets:
May-August 8 hours of heat at 35 degrees
September - May 12 hours of heat at 35 degrees.
When its time to adjust the hours, I do one hour each week until its at the desired 8 or 12 hours depending on the time of year.

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No idea what you do with lizards though. I dont keep any pets with legs!
 
Beardies will start to go off their food about this time of year, which means they are getting ready to brumate. If you can, feed them up with whatever their favourite food might be, so they will go down in good condition. They will start to disappear into their hides for longer periods as well.
Keeping your beardie awake through winter is not in the animal's best interests, as Snowman has said.
 
Beardies will start to go off their food about this time of year, which means they are getting ready to brumate. If you can, feed them up with whatever their favourite food might be, so they will go down in good condition. They will start to disappear into their hides for longer periods as well.
Keeping your beardie awake through winter is not in the animal's best interests, as Snowman has said.
How so ?

what harm does it do to them to keep them awake and active over winter ?
 
I don't think it is necessary unless you are breeding. I have never done a cool down period for brumation (for lizards or snakes) simply because I have never bred anything. I have never seen any adverse effects from this (in my personal experience), not to say there isn't but I have never had any problems. They usally don't eat as much durring these cooler periods regardless (again solely from what I adserve and experience). [MENTION=41780]Snowman[/MENTION] its the same with lizards, though I don't know of any adverse affects from not allowing for a brumation/cooldown period. I have the one snake and everything else has legs haha
 
How so ?

what harm does it do to them to keep them awake and active over winter ?
Keeping them awake unnaturally, when they are naturally trying to brumate, is not good for them. "Someone" had a very long argument on another forum about this previously. If it is in-built into them to want to brumate, then I believe let them do it.
Many years ago, before there was all this information about correct care, our first beardie used to sleep for longer periods over winter, even though we left its heat on out of ignorance.
As soon as our guys start to hide away, we turn the lights off; gradually to start with, by shortening the "day" cycle.
 
How so ?

what harm does it do to them to keep them awake and active over winter ?

Brumation to reptiles is the same as hibernation in mammals. The only difference is the terminology.

It is an instinctive survival strategy that has been developed over thousands of years of evolution where their bodies have developed to adapt to harsh winter conditions. We shouldn't expect the way their body functions to change over the short period that they have been kept under captive conditions. It is far better for the welfare of any captive reptile to be provided an environment as close to that as they would experience under natural conditions. I can see no other purpose for not providing them with a natural brumation period other than simply for our own pleasure.

Many keepers are of the opinion that by not providing such an environment results in the animal's life span being significantly reduced.

George.
 
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No one is going to change your opinion, kingofnobbys. I know this from experience. But please don't continue to argue points that have been amply explained above.
Well and good if your lizards show no sign of brumation ( we only have you word for that); I am not going to argue about that with you. However it must be noted that nearly every other owner/keeper does have reptiles that brumate, and look after them accordingly. It is nothing to do with breeding, just what is in the best interest of the reptile.
 
I'm not sure how other species fair in regards to brumation, but I remember reading in A Guide to . . . Australian Lizards in Captivity that adult sand dragons, in particular, need to undergo winter cooling - otherwise they will experience a premature death.

Quoted from the source, page 744.

"Active cooling over winter is necessary for adult and breeding dragons in this group. In many species a lack of active cooling will result in premature death - this has been observed in C.isolepis, C.nuchalis, C.reticulatus, C.pictus, C.fordi and C.maculosus. Many species that appear to cope without sufficient cooling often breed poorly in the following season, even if they appeared healthy and recovered after wasting. It seems they need the time-out period provided by cooling and brumation to prepare both metabolically and reproductively for the following season. Without this they appear to exhaust their fat stores beyond a point of recovery and simply 'burn out'."

Hope this helps. Most of my lizards are slowing down as well, except for a few. It will be quite boring when everyone is bedded down. But hey, I can have a holiday! ;)
 
Hmm learn something new everyday. Will turn down temps this winter, see if I see any change. Wonder if C.fionni life spans are effected by brumation(?) my guy was 8 years old when he passed still two years above average but anyway. Anyone have any papers on this? Be an interesting read.... Not sure if any of those "personal attacks" were directed at me, sorry(?) I wasn't giving advice or anything just sharing my expereince (only making that comment cause someone quoated me and the post was deleted before I could read it :/ ).
 
Hmm learn something new everyday. Will turn down temps this winter, see if I see any change. Wonder if C.fionni life spans are effected by brumation(?) my guy was 8 years old when he passed still two years above average but anyway. Anyone have any papers on this? Be an interesting read.... Not sure if any of those "personal attacks" were directed at me, sorry(?) I wasn't giving advice or anything just sharing my expereince (only making that comment cause someone quoated me and the post was deleted before I could read it :/ ).
see PM

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I'm not sure how other species fair in regards to brumation, but I remember reading in A Guide to . . . Australian Lizards in Captivity that adult sand dragons, in particular, need to undergo winter cooling - otherwise they will experience a premature death.

Quoted from the source, page 744.

"Active cooling over winter is necessary for adult and breeding dragons in this group. In many species a lack of active cooling will result in premature death - this has been observed in C.isolepis, C.nuchalis, C.reticulatus, C.pictus, C.fordi and C.maculosus. Many species that appear to cope without sufficient cooling often breed poorly in the following season, even if they appeared healthy and recovered after wasting. It seems they need the time-out period provided by cooling and brumation to prepare both metabolically and reproductively for the following season. Without this they appear to exhaust their fat stores beyond a point of recovery and simply 'burn out'."



Hope this helps. Most of my lizards are slowing down as well, except for a few. It will be quite boring when everyone is bedded down. But hey, I can have a holiday! ;)
Interesting BUT I don't see P.vitticeps listed.


I will repeat, I'm not breeding my lizards.


Maybe there is a properly done study out there somewhere to settle this discussion one way or another.

This is from an experienced reptile vet : http://www.nicklinwayvet.com.au/bearded-dragons/

Brumation is similar to mammalian hibernation, and is the time that lizards will enter a period of inactivity during the cooler months. As the temperature drops to 15[SUP]o[/SUP]C to 20[SUP]o[/SUP]C, feeding should be reduced, and cease when the temperature drops below 12[SUP]o[/SUP]C. At this time most Bearded Dragons will enter brumation. During this period, the photoperiod and temperature should also be altered. Indications of impending brumation include reduced activity, loss of appetite and little or no basking. Bearded Dragons will hide themselves under logs or leaf litter or in a hiding den during this time.
Although it is important for some reptiles, brumation is not necessary to maintain the health of Bearded Dragons, and should not occur in their first winter. It is however needed to induce breeding.
If it was necessary for beardie longevity one might expect she'd say so.
 
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Hi Nobby,

As the vet's profiles at Nicklin Way Vets indicate none appear to actually specialise in reptiles. The extract of the article that you have quoted is taken from the pages of Brisbane Bird and Exotics Veterinary Services and after reading the profiles of the vets there I wouldn't hold much faith in their experience with reptiles either.

Personally I'm not aware of any scientific studies regarding the effects on captive beardeds when deliberately deprived of following their natural cycle to brumate. However I don't see the purpose of preventing them from engaging in a natural event other than for our own personal enjoyment of watching them.

Personally I couldn't care less how you keep your critters but if you can provide me with info on why NOT allowing them to experience brumation is beneficial to them, I'm all ears.

Cheers.
 
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I'm with you, George. If it is the animal's natural inclination to brumate, then surely it is cruel to not let it. The only part of the quote above I agree with is to not let them in their first winter. Occasionally there have been beardies that have wanted to brumate in their first winter, and advice has always been given to try and avoid this, as their bodies aren't up to the brumation process at that stage.
[MENTION=40362]CrazyNut[/MENTION], having read the deleted posts, no one was having a dig or go at you mate. The attacks were aimed at two old "sparring partners" from another forum.
 
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Cool. So would I have to decrease ambient temperature (and basking spot) as well as the daylight cycle? I can easily do both but as I'm unsure better to ask haha (aplogies @Snapper don't mean to hyjack your thread). [MENTION=38465]pinefamily[/MENTION] Thanks mate (thought my lack of understanding might be the centre of negative attetion as it has been in the past).
 
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If/when your reptile looks like it wants to start sleeping more, and starts to go off its food, slowly start to shorten the day cycle, which is both lights and heat. You don't need to lower the heat, just shorten the time it is on. When I say slowly, probably about 30 minutes to an hour a week.
You have to be careful and monitor the situation, as sometimes they stop start this process.
 
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