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Matt and Suz

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Redland Bay, Queensland
Hi all,

I know this gets spoken about quite a lot and I have searched through the old threads and found a lot of information but I am still concerned.

I picked up my first snake Saturday 17/2. I purchased a three week old hatchy coastal python. I was told that it was eating and had shed. I tried to feed when I got home that night (pinky) but no luck. I have left it for a few days at a time and tried a couple more times. Didn’t try for a few days and tried today. The python gets into the strike position and watches the pinky like a hawk. This afternoon it actually opened its mouth for a split second and that was it.

My question is, is it possible for this little bugger to not know how to feed? It’s going on over two weeks since it has eaten (so I am told). I am getting a little concerned. Appreciate any help and guidance you may have.

Thanks
 
Welcome to the forum.
Three weeks is young to be sold. First thing to try is to leave it alone for a few more days (it's not going to starve in that time), and then offer again. If it refuses, leave it in the tank and walk away.
Have you tried feeding at different times of day?
 
Hi and thank you for your reply. I have tried morning, lunch and night. I have tried braining the pinkies too. I have left some in there over night and nothing. Yes I did think 3 weeks was a bit young.

I am worried that I am doing something wrong in the way I am presenting. I defrost in warm water in a snappy bag. I then hold it by the back tail/legs with feeding tweezers. I have tried for up to 20 min at times.

Thanks again.
 
Do you have it in an enclosure or a tub?
Normally hatchies are kept in tubs and its quite common for the animal to need time to adjust to a larger abode.

Make sure it has plenty of places to hide, put food on the floor just inside the hide and leave it be overnight.
Best if you can keep it in a low traffic area until it settles too.
 
I have it in a tub at this stage. It’s a 15L clear plastic one. I have two hides in there which it spends a lot of time in. I have a 5w heat mat but I am getting a thermostat in the next couple of days. I may move him/her out of the dining room for a while and see if that helps. I will try the food near the entry. Thanks heaps for your advice. I just want to do the best I can for him/her. Cheers
 
Try not using tongs to feed. Just put the food on the floor and leave well alone. (No sitting there watching I'm afraid, many hatchies are very secretive eaters till the get established/confident)
 
Leave it for a few days, cover the tub with a towel or something.

It sounds like it’s going into a defensive pose rather than a feeding pose.

Not to be rude, but it really should have been left alone for a 5-7 days before interaction, this gets it used to its surroundings and new smells etc. as said, leave it for a few more days, it will be 100% fine and try and feed it again. If it doesn’t leave it near it’s hide overnight in case it would rather take it in there and eat
 
Ok thanks very much. I did read that it should be left alone for a while but i was also concerned as I am unsure of the last time it ate if it has at all. I will leave it for a few days and see what happens. I did just drop a pinky in but I will pull it out in the morning if still there and then leave it. Again thank you all so much for your advice. Cheers
 
In my experience a 15l tub is even to big for hatchy that young a 5L or 7L will be better suited it will feel much more secure and likely to feed .
 
In my experience a 15l tub is even to big for hatchy that young a 5L or 7L will be better suited it will feel much more secure and likely to feed .
While we did use 7 litre tubs for our young hatchies, if there are plenty of hides for the python, it should be ok in a 15 litre tub. We used a couple of the bigger tubs when we had problem feeders that outgrew their size 7's but weren't ready for an enclosure.
 
A few things worth noting... and to add to the advice already offered... at 3 weeks the snake is unlikely to have had more than one feed before being sold to you, as they usually shed their skin a week or so after hatch, and don't usually feed before then. It is very irresponsible of the vendor to sell a novice keeper a snake which is clearly not an established feeder - the baby should be at least 3 months old and have had a minimum of 6 feeds. An established baby Carpet will usually feed on the first day it arrives if all other parameters - shelter, temperature and a sense of security are OK.

Appropriate temperature is critical to getting a good feeding response. 32-33C would be what you should aim for.

You might find that something a bit larger than a pinky, with fur, will be more attractive - I have always started Carpet babies on small fuzzy or weaner mice because I have found that they are harder to start on pink mice. A normal sized baby Carpet will often be able to take a weaner mouse without difficulty, and they seem to prefer something with fur, thawed in warm water and offered still warm.

Don't worry about the time since the last feed - the baby, if healthy at hatch, will be able to go for several months without feeding. When I was breeding Carpets, and following the advice of a very experienced US breeder friend, I routinely didn't offer food for the first six weeks, to ensure that they were really hungry. They establish very quickly if treated this way, and it doesn't harm them at all. It can set up a negative reaction to the offering of food if you worry them constantly with offers, better to let it go for a few days without handling and then offer food in the late afternoon/early evening. make sure that you don't disturb the animal when removing lids etc, do it as quietly and smoothly as possible, and only shift the lid enough to offer the food on tongs or forceps. Taking the lid right off will make the baby feel very exposed. This will change once the baby is fully established and more confident.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Jamie
 
Hi guys and thanks again for all of your advice. I was considering a smaller container but I didn’t want to stress the little one again with another change. I have been trying to get advice from the seller but he just keeps saying hatchies are temperamental. When talking about temps is it air temp or floor you are referring to. I will have the thermostat hooked up in the next few days but the floor temps with the heat mat are high 30-40 at one end down to high 20s on the cool side. I have an infrared thermometer but can’t really measure air temp with it.

Thank you all for your help and advice. This is all a huge learning curve for me but it is great to have people like all of you to get the right advice.

Cheers, Matt.
 
Yes, you've been sold a baby which is far from established in the sense that experienced breeders understand. It's OK to sell a non-established youngster to an experienced keeper as long as he/she understands what they're getting, but very unethical to sell a snake like this to a novice. The whole idea of "establishing" baby snakes is to get them over the temperamental phase before you pass them on. High 30-40C is too hot, you should place the container on some supports 2-3cm above the heat mat to achieve a floor temperature of around 32 at the warm end. Heat mats should always have an air space to allow circulation of air - even low wattage ones can overheat and burn the table or melt plastic (most have instructions that indicate the need for a space between mat and enclosure floor).

That temp does not have to be constant - it can be allowed to get quite a bit cooler in the evening if that is the natural cycle of the room you have it in - 8-12 hours at a daytime temp of 32 - 33 will be enough. Trying a bigger meal than a pinky is also very important.

Jamie
 
Yes, you've been sold a baby which is far from established in the sense that experienced breeders understand. It's OK to sell a non-established youngster to an experienced keeper as long as he/she understands what they're getting, but very unethical to sell a snake like this to a novice. The whole idea of "establishing" baby snakes is to get them over the temperamental phase before you pass them on. High 30-40C is too hot, you should place the container on some supports 2-3cm above the heat mat to achieve a floor temperature of around 32 at the warm end. Heat mats should always have an air space to allow circulation of air - even low wattage ones can overheat and burn the table or melt plastic (most have instructions that indicate the need for a space between mat and enclosure floor).

That temp does not have to be constant - it can be allowed to get quite a bit cooler in the evening if that is the natural cycle of the room you have it in - 8-12 hours at a daytime temp of 32 - 33 will be enough. Trying a bigger meal than a pinky is also very important.

Jamie
This is great advice.
I would like to make one correction though. Heatmats are designed to be stuck to the base of a glass enclosure. The air gap is meant to be between the underside of the heatmat and the furniture the enclosure is placed on. Most heatmats come with small rubber feet to be stuck to the enclosure, raising it up and creating this air gap.
A thermostat is a must when using heatmats with a plastic tub.
 
This is great advice.
I would like to make one correction though. Heatmats are designed to be stuck to the base of a glass enclosure. The air gap is meant to be between the underside of the heatmat and the furniture the enclosure is placed on. Most heatmats come with small rubber feet to be stuck to the enclosure, raising it up and creating this air gap.
A thermostat is a must when using heatmats with a plastic tub.

You may be right about the heat mat and sticking it to the enclosure base, but I've always just placed them on the base (shelf or table) and then raised the enclosure by 20mm or so. Six of one, half a dozen of the other I guess. I haven't used heatmats for maybe 15 years now, since heat cords came out.

Jamie
 
I actually bought the mat from the same person i bought the python from so I don't have instructions. I will do as suggested and raise the tub slighly. I am going to leave "Buddy" until at least Saturday and see what happens. It's a shame he didnt give me a heads up or anything.

Thanks again.
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You may be right about the heat mat and sticking it to the enclosure base, but I've always just placed them on the base (shelf or table) and then raised the enclosure by 20mm or so. Six of one, half a dozen of the other I guess. I haven't used heatmats for maybe 15 years now, since heat cords came out.

Jamie

Do you think a heat cord is a better option? Cheers
 
There's a mixture of good and bad advice in this thread, which as a newbie I'm sure will be a bit difficult to navigate through. Some of it comes from highly experienced people, some from other relative newbies who really shouldn't be giving advice. As with any animal keeping community, you'll find a wide range of information in the herp scene ranging from brilliant to outright destructive.

Different things work for different people in different circumstances. There are different schools of thought when it comes to leaving a snake to settle in and offering it a feed sooner. I'm personally firmly in the offer it a feed immediately camp. I find that snakes are generally more willing to feed within 24 hours of arrival than if they are left alone for a week. When I was a newbie myself I followed the leave it alone advice, but after a few years of experimenting found it was counter productive. After quite some years of being in the routine of offering them a feed quickly I was chatting to John Weigel (I don't mean to name drop, just that this is an opinion shared by many people including one of Australia's best known and respected herpers), and he agreed with me, saying he saw it as a snake coming into a new environment and thinking 'Hey, this place is really good, there is food available here, I'm feeling happy' rather than 'Gee, I've ended up in this new place and it seems like a pretty desolate place with nothing to eat, I miss my old home where I got to eat, I really want to get out of here'. I might have added my own opinion there on top of John's, but that's the gist of how we both saw it. To give you an idea of feeding them unsettled, until about 15 years ago (I no longer do it because of quarantine concerns) I would let buyers bring back snakes if they were having trouble feeding, and I'd feed them for them. After a ride in a car, in a transport tub rather than their usual enclosure, and in view of two or three people, I'd almost always get them to feed immediately, almost always to the astonishment of their owners. At the time I think I found this a bit puzzling myself, because if I could do it with ease I assumed they could too, but I was instinctively using more technique than I realised.

I agree with smaller tubs being better, especially if you're not familiar with how to set them up perfectly.

40 is too hot. I keep the hot end in the low 30s, and ideally I keep the room above 20 for hatchlings, preferably above 25, so that the cool end of the tub stays above 25.

Pythoninfinite is an experienced keeper I respect, but I disagree with him on letting hatchlings cool down and 12 hours of heat being okay - not to speak poorly of him, but I think you'll get better feeding responses from hatchlings if you prevent them from experiencing temperatures below about 25 until they're established. Especially at this time of year as it is starting to cool down and the day length is decreasing, you don't want to be giving them any environmental cues to suggest that it's winter and feeding may be hazardous. Having experimented with many different things over more than 20 years, the best feeding results I have had are keeping them between about 28 and 31 degrees without having to thermoregulate. For various reasons that's not generally what I do for myself, but I see absolutely no reason for a new keeper to cool an unestablished hatchling overnight. Once again, I don't mean to say anything negative about Pythoninfinite, he knows what he is doing and his methods obviously work for him, but I personally would suggest you try a different approach. He obviously disagrees with me, you'll find a lot of that, that's fine and eventually you can see what works for you :)

This is largely personal preference but I personally don't generally like leaving feed in with them, I want them to enthusiastically seize feed from the tongs, 'kill' it and eat it. By all means have a go at leaving it in overnight, but I find it's wasteful (more often than not they won't eat, and every time they don't you waste a rodent, and they become familiar with rodents being a thing which they share space with which don't get eaten, rather than them being feed). There's a real knack to offering feed on tongs. I remember being a newbie and having trouble with it, and seeing experienced herpers doing it with some sort of magical touch which immediately illicited a strong feeding response. I can now very easily get many snakes to feed while newbies are completely unable to feed the same rodent to the same snake with the same pair of forceps. It's a talent you can develop, some people have a better aptitude for it than others. Unfortunately you've jumped in right at the deep end with a snake which isn't established and without first hand experience, but the good news is that it'll be a great learning experience for you. It is possible that your breeder fell for the trap of being easily able to feed the snake himself, but the snake requiring a skilled feeder to illicit a strong response. I always make sure that if the snake is going to a newbie it will immediately smash a rodent without me having to use any of the tricks involved with waving it around and strategically tapping the snake's body etc. I've also tried to find excuses to watch complete newbies try to feed my unestablished snakes to see what the novice buyers are trying to do, and I also try to find excuses to watch other experienced keepers feed tricky snakes in case there's anything more I can learn - we never stop learning and I still manage to exchange new tricks with other keepers with experience above and below my own.

Sorry for the encyclopaedic 'TLDR' post, and congratulations if you bothered to read it all! Have fun with your new snake, welcome to the world of snakes, and it gets a lot more fun when they're enthusiastically feeding :)
 
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