Juvie Diamond Python behaviour

[GBWhite]

Both "frequent feeding" and "power feeding" are methods used by breeders to get selected snakes to a breeding size within the first 12 to 18 months. It serves no real purpose other than to get the snakes to a mature state solely for the purpose of breeding and is not recommended for anyone who does not intend to breed their snake. Both methods are believed to be detrimental to the welfare of the snake as it is suspected that it may shorten their life span. The snake in the above picture posted by Bl69aze looks to be overweight to me.

I'll add that for some reason a lot of people seem to think that because the distribution of Diamonds (Morelia spilota sp) extends from the Central Coast of NSW to the Vic boarder they have to be kept cooler than others of the same taxa. It's not really the case because both summer and winter temperature ranges are not much different from locations where others of the same taxa occur. As suggested and like others of the Morelia spilota group young ones should be provided heat 24/7 for at least the first 12 months then once they are established M sp sp only require short periods of heat because, due to their dark dorsal colouration, they heat up very quickly and because of this they don't require long periods of high temperatures to reach and maintain their preferred body temperature.

 

[Bl69aze]

Both "frequent feeding" and "power feeding" are methods used by breeders to get selected snakes to a breeding size within the first 12 to 18 months. It serves no real purpose other than to get the snakes to a mature state solely for the purpose of breeding and is not recommended for anyone who does not intend to breed their snake. Both methods are believed to be detrimental to the welfare of the snake as it is suspected that it may shorten their life span. The snake in the above picture posted by Bl69aze looks to be overweight to me.

I'll add that for some reason a lot of people seem to think that because the distribution of Diamonds (Morelia spilota sp) extends from the Central Coast of NSW to the Vic boarder they have to be kept cooler than others of the same taxa. It's not really the case because both summer and winter temperature ranges are not much different from locations where others of the same taxa occur. As suggested and like others of the Morelia spilota group young ones should be provided heat 24/7 for at least the first 12 months then once they are established they only require short periods of heat because, due to their dark dorsal colouration, they heat up very quickly and because of this they don't require long periods of high temperatures to reach and maintain their preferred body temperature.

Not sure why you think he’s overweight, I’m not sure but it could have been taken after a feed a day or 2 prior.

He doesn’t get fed much maybe a 300g rat every 2 months

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

Agree wholeheartedly with George's comments above.
Diamonds should be fed sparingly. So many of these die young in captivity due to poor husbandry and over feeding its not funny.
My adult male has about 10 feeds a year but is always alert and looking for the next feed, (exactly how they should be as ambush feeders). Many keepers interpret the behaviour as a reason to feed them more frequently which is detrimental to health.

 

[Scutellatus]

Not sure why you think he’s overweight, I’m not sure but it could have been taken after a feed a day or 2 prior.

He doesn’t get fed much maybe a 300g rat every 2 months

A healthy weighted python, excluding Woma and Black-Headed, should in my opinion have a head width a little smaller than the widest part of their body.

The first coil on your Diamond is big enough to be the middle coil going off that picture, even then it still would be too big. The first coil looks to be at least one and a half times the head width.
Get it on a diet asap!

I would scrap your feed by weight, or at least reduce it significantly, start feeding by size rather than weight.
I wouldn't be feeding it anything that is wider than its head.

As stated above 'Power feeding' is detrimental to your animals. There is no point anyway unless you have the next wonder of the world and they are worth a fortune once bred.

 

[LilithLeChat]

I have no intention of breeding my snake, as I have no experience, and even if I did, I’m not sure the market is big enough to support another breeder.

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

My adults are fed every 3-4 weeks but rarely anything bigger than a 150g rat.
Bigger the feeder animal the higher the fat content.

 

[Bl69aze]

A healthy weighted python, excluding Woma and Black-Headed, should in my opinion have a head width a little smaller than the widest part of their body.

The first coil on your Diamond is big enough to be the middle coil going off that picture, even then it still would be too big. The first coil looks to be at least one and a half times the head width.
Get it on a diet asap!

I would scrap your feed by weight, or at least reduce it significantly, start feeding by size rather than weight.
I wouldn't be feeding it anything that is wider than its head.

As stated above 'Power feeding' is detrimental to your animals. There is no point anyway unless you have the next wonder of the world and they are worth a fortune once bred.

That’s definitely a new one for me, I always went over whether the “spine” dent/creasing/whatever you want to call it was visible or not. He’s definitely not overweight or anything like that, it’s the angle he’s got his head and hiding the part that leads to the first coil

This is the size meal he gets. Definitely not power feeding

 

[Scutellatus]

That’s definitely a new one for me, I always went over whether the “spine” dent/creasing/whatever you want to call it was visible or not. He’s definitely not overweight or anything like that, it’s the angle he’s got his head and hiding the part that leads to the first coil

Grab another picture from its 'good angle' for us.

 

[Bl69aze]

This is what happens when they stop getting handled, and you need to clean up the **** that can’t be picked with paper towel


[doublepost=1529146538,1529146501][/doublepost]

Grab another picture from its 'good angle' for us.

See post above yours
[doublepost=1529146719][/doublepost]

I have no intention of breeding my snake, as I have no experience, and even if I did, I’m not sure the market is big enough to support another breeder.

Only way to get experience is to do.

As someone stated, it’s not really worth to breed them at 18mths (which is why people smash them with food) unless you have a worlds first

I.e first albino darwin and olive off springs. Sold them for a tonne of $$

 

[Scutellatus]

This is what happens when they stop getting handled, and you need to clean up the **** that can’t be picked with paper towel

View attachment 324545
[doublepost=1529146538,1529146501][/doublepost]
See post above yours
[doublepost=1529146719][/doublepost]

Only way to get experience is to do.

As someone stated, it’s not really worth to breed them at 18mths (which is why people smash them with food) unless you have a worlds first

I.e first albino darwin and olive off springs. Sold them for a tonne of $$

To me it still looks grossly overweight. The part of the picture closest to the middle of the snake is huge and that still isn't the widest part, that disappears right of shot.

You do realise this whole feeding by weight came about from people wanting to breed big dollar animals earlier don't you?
They probably took the old zoo rule of X amount of food for X amount of weight and doubled it. Bob's your uncle, hatchies in two years, who cares that the breeders will be dead in ten.

You have had three people tell you it is overweight, two of which (George and Paul) probably have 70+ years combined experience.
What you do with those recommendations is up to you.
I know who I would trust though.

 

[Bl69aze]

Well gee.. he’s doing well for a morbidly obese snake.

 

[Flaviemys purvisi]

Well gee.. he’s doing well for a morbidly obese snake.

It hasn't eaten any women... He's looking good.

 

[Scutellatus]

Well gee.. he’s doing well for a morbidly obese snake.

It will do well, just like a morbidly obese (your words, not mine) human, that is until it suffers from acute organ failure related to fatty liver disease and heart failure etc.

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

Well gee.. he’s doing well for a morbidly obese snake.

Not sure that anyone has made the suggestion morbidly obese but Diamonds are not just another carpet python. Their life cycle in captivity commonly fails to exceed 10 years which is quite poor by comparison to most carpet pythons. The common causes of this are over feeding and excessive periods of heating. (Plus the old favourite of not having a 'cooled' or rest period during winter).
You can take the advice/opinions as you wish, but to change it from "your snake looks overweight", too "Well gee.. he’s doing well for a morbidly obese snake", is a total fabrication of what has been said.
Not that you ever let the facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[Nero Egernia]

Both "frequent feeding" and "power feeding" are methods used by breeders to get selected snakes to a breeding size within the first 12 to 18 months. It serves no real purpose other than to get the snakes to a mature state solely for the purpose of breeding and is not recommended for anyone who does not intend to breed their snake. Both methods are believed to be detrimental to the welfare of the snake as it is suspected that it may shorten their life span.

As stated above 'Power feeding' is detrimental to your animals. There is no point anyway unless you have the next wonder of the world and they are worth a fortune once bred.

It will do well, just like a morbidly obese (your words, not mine) human, that is until it suffers from acute organ failure related to fatty liver disease and heart failure etc.

How is power feeding detrimental to a snake's health? How does it reduce their lifespan? Are there any studies that demonstrate this? I thought fatty liver disease is the result of over feeding an adult, as a young growing snake would be utilizing the extra energy towards attaining adult size, and not storing it as fat as an adult would. I'm not intending to be controversial, I'm genuinely curious. Power feeding and breeding snakes as a form of income is relatively new, such as in the last decade or so, isn't it? Would there be enough time and data to support these claims if snakes can potentially live to 20-30 years?

 

[Pauls_Pythons]

How is power feeding detrimental to a snake's health? How does it reduce their lifespan? Are there any studies that demonstrate this? I thought fatty liver disease is the result of over feeding an adult, as a young growing snake would be utilizing the extra energy towards attaining adult size, and not storing it as fat as an adult would.

Snakes that are 'well fed' tend to be lazy which means they don't burn off the fat which ends up collecting around the organs, (primarily the liver) in most species not just BHP's though it is commonly discussed in BHP's.
Its common to have temps high for extended periods to drive the snakes metabolism to aid in digestion so the next feed can be offered. Raising the metabolic rate for extended periods is akin to overworking your body and can give rise to many health issues.
Commonly those who power feed don't winter their animals, winter is a critical period in a snakes health, not only to rest the metabolism but to get rid of excess fat from around the organs. Have you ever noticed that during winter your snakes urates have a green tinge?......Thats the excess fat being cleared from the liver.

I had the pleasure of meeting someone earlier this year who had bred their BHP's at 18 months old. Animals had been power fed from being 6 weeks old and while they look fine other than being fat no doubt the breeder planned sell them on as a proven breeding pair in a couple of years, just in time before they demonstrate any health issues.

 

[Scutellatus]

How is power feeding detrimental to a snake's health? How does it reduce their lifespan? Are there any studies that demonstrate this? I thought fatty liver disease is the result of over feeding an adult, as a young growing snake would be utilizing the extra energy towards attaining adult size, and not storing it as fat as an adult would. I'm not intending to be controversial, I'm genuinely curious. Power feeding and breeding snakes as a form of income is relatively new, such as in the last decade or so, isn't it? Would there be enough time and data to support these claims if snakes can potentially live to 20-30 years?

I just found this, which confirms it as true, but not in every case:

CONCLUSIONS AND RECOMMENDATIONS
Although hepatic lipidosis of reptiles has traditionally been considered to be associated with
over-feeding, obesity, and under exercise, it is now clear that this is not always true (Elkan 1981;
Frye 1991). As in other animals including humans, excess lipid deposition in the liver can be due
to, or follow, a number of insults, including toxins, anoxia, and impaired metabolism of
carbohydrate and volatile fatty acids.

Taken from:
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...FjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3faN9d6_X9ixu6rcknBdb-

 

[Bl69aze]

A) I’m not overfeeding

B) he’s not lazy and he climbs his branches

Tell me how that article links breeders power feeding snakes to 18month breeders; cause problems later in their life when they’ve stopped frequent feeding of non fatty rodents.

I can agree that larger /“colossal” rats have massive % of fat and should not be fed unless you have a larger snake you want to breed.

 

[Scutellatus]

A) I’m not overfeeding

B) he’s not lazy and he climbs his branches

Tell me how that article links breeders power feeding snakes to 18month breeders; cause problems later in their life when they’ve stopped frequent feeding of non fatty rodents.

I can agree that larger /“colossal” rats have massive % of fat and should not be fed unless you have a larger snake you want to breed.

A) It looks like someone is.

B) That is like saying someone who sits around and eats all day won't get fat because they get up to go to the fridge regularly.
Snakes do quite a bit of cruising around in the wild, over all sorts of terrain, which keeps them lean. That cannot be replicated easily in a small enclosure.


CONCLUSIONS AND
RECOMMENDATIONS
Although hepatic lipidosis of reptiles has traditionally been considered to be associated with
over-feeding, obesity, and under exercise, it is now clear that this is not always true'.

Do you understand what the above sentence means?

Do you seriously think they stop power feeding at 18mths?
The bigger the snake the more eggs remember, more eggs = more $.

 

[GBWhite]

There have been many studies undertaken on the subject of overfeeding a number of species of snakes including pythons.

Without going overboard with too much detail I'll try and explain why “frequent feeding” and “power feeding” and "overfeeding" can be detrimental to the welfare of a sit and wait strategist such as pythons.

The ingestion and absorption of nutrients in a snake’s meal impose metabolic costs. During the period of fasting the digestive system of sit and wait strategist such as pythons is small and as such the metabolic costs are low. However, a couple of days after feeding the size of the digestive system (which includes the liver, kidneys and intestine increase dramatically (up to twice their size and larger dependent on the size of the food item) and the gastric functions are upregulated. To accommodate for the increase in organ size for digestion the heart rate also increases. As a result these snakes in particular must invest large amounts of energy mobilized from their tissue stores before they absorb the nutrients contained in the food item. It takes around 2 weeks for a food item to be fully digested and for the digestive system to start to recover and return to normal.

Methods such as “frequent feeding” & “power feeding” are not recommended because it places unnecessary strain on the metabolic systems and does not provide time for a snake to fully digest the nutrients or allow it's digestive system time to recover and as such are not considered conducive to maintaining a snake in a healthy condition long term.

Symptoms associated with problems identified as a result of overfeeding may not become apparent to the keeper in the short term but usually surface when a snake reaches "mid life" when they are often too advanced to respond to treatment and care.

Overweight captive snakes (both old and young) have been known to initiate self fasting and refuse food to allow their metabolism to fully recover and return to a normal state.