Temperature troubles

[Blighty]

Whilst I would agree to wait until tomorrow for further advice, if you were curious about Heat Cords and so on - I am quite fond of sandwiching them between tiles with a bit of Corflute between, holding everything in place. Inspired by these forums, it is a pretty legit way of getting a cord inside the enclosure.

Considering you have a Reptile One enclosure, I know those cable management holes up the top will fit a power cord through them. You would then have your thermostat probe sitting on the tile in order to set your temp.




I used 30x30cm tiles. Cut the Corflute to about 28x28cm or so. Routed a 15w (?) Heat Cord through it (1.5m heating length iirc) with roughly even spacing - You just use a knife/stanley to cut the channels. I used a low odour, "eco-friendly" liquid nails to adhese the tiles to the Corflute - would need to find the tube to give better details.

Sorry if my sentences are a little messy, I am quite tired at the moment.

Edit: Better add the reasoning. Ceramic tiles tend to not hot-spot as badly as other mediums. The heat takes a while to transfer into them, letting it spread nice and evenly. Something like that. I am sure someone else will end up explaining it better.

(you can get everything at Bunnings, minus the cord itself)

 

[pythoninfinite]

I think you've answered it perfectly Blighty. I suspect that the OP was not placing the thermostat and/or thermometer probe in the correct position. Both need to be ON the surface you want to heat, not sampling the air nearby. As you suggested a 15W heat cord, I'd be happy with that wattage covering a smaller area. The Coreflute is a new one on me, but it sounds like a great idea. Much easier than routing (with a router) a track into particleboard or MDF. Excellent thinking! As you say it takes a while for the material to heat and stabilise (probably a few hours), but that's probably a good thing - it's always better to go for the lowest wattage needed to achieve the temps you want, rather than using bigger wattages and risking a rapid spiking in temps.

Jamie

 

[Bluetongue1]

Hi all,

I’ve been having issues getting the hot side of my enclosure to actually get anywhere near hot. I’m going to be getting a Stimson and so I need the hot side to be around 32 degrees obviously, but I can’t get it above 22. I have a very large enclosure (90cm long 45cm deep and 60cm tall). My heat mat did essentially nothing, so I’ve got a ceramic heather (150W) in a porcelain glow light sitting directly on top of the enclosure and it still won’t heat above 22 degrees. The whole top of my enclosure is ventilated, would covering some (not all) of it help trap the heat in better? Or is this a terrible idea? I really don’t know what to do now. Any help would be much appreciated!!! Thank you!

OK, the enclosure you acquired is much better suited for frogs or geckos, but it can used for your stimmie. However, whoever showed you or suggested to you how to set it up had absolutely no idea what they were doing. The advertising blurb shows that - here is an image they provide depicting one set up for housing a bearded dragon. (Personally I would not use it for that either.)


For housing a stimmie a heat tile idefinitely the best option in terms of effectiveness and being cost efficient. There is a cable aperture on the L/H side (facing) throughwhich you would feed the heat cord cable. Do NOT use tape to hold the cable against the inside wall of the enclosure. Use Blutack (temporary, but may be dislodged) or a few small dollops of silicone (pemanent, but can be removed with silicone dissolver or a 0ne-sided razor blade). It is better to use an insulator like wood as the base, rather than another tile, as this helps direct the heat into the upper tile where it is wanted.


FYI, if interested, following is a detailed explanation of what I believe was happening…
The advertising blurb on the enclosure refers to the top on it as being “super fine, high strength, high quality wire mesh”. As the thickness of the wire used in the mesh is the main determiner of strength, then likely the mesh wire is thicker than normal. The mesh is made “super fine” by putting the wire threads closer together, to reduce the size of the apertures formed. The nett effect of this is that the top is more metal than air gaps. This then blocks the rays from a heat source in the same way that shade cloth block the sun’s rays.

At the same time, the mesh is matt black in colour and so will absorb radiation rather than reflect it. This radiation will heat the mesh under the lamp. Being metal, the mesh will conduct the heat and spread it out. As the mesh warms up, it will heat the air around it, causing this to rise. Air from beneath is then drawn in to replace the rising air, producing an upward air stream (i.e. a convection current). Heat generated inside of the enclosure by what radiation does get through, will be continually ‘eaten away at’ by this air stream.

 

[Caitlin96]

Okay so, we got a heat cord and a 150W infrared heat light. The light is in a cage inside the enclosure. We also got a big flat slate rock to help soak up heat.
With the heat cord on, the temperature directly on the rock gets up to around 37 degrees after about 20 minutes or so, with the cord OFF it got to around 34 or so. The air temperature about 3 inches above the rock (on the branch) got to around 33, with the cord of it’s around 29. With the probe stuck to the back wall just on top the substrate it was around 29.5 (that’s with the cord on, we also ran the cord a little bit up the back of the enclosure).
My concern is if we keep the heat cord on, that the rock will get TOO hot? So is a near 40degree surface temp on the rock okay for snake, should we just keep the heat cord off, or should we keep everything on but just move the rock a little so it isn’t directly under the light?
I hope the photo is clear enough to understand

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[Bl69aze]

you will only need 1 or the other

 

[Caitlin96]

you will only need 1 or the other

Only cord or light? Because at the moment it I cant tell if we need both. The average temp just above substrate with cord off is near 31 and on top of the slate is probably around 34 (obviously the longer I leave the probe on it the hotter it gets). Is that sufficient enough?


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[Blighty]

Perhaps this will help:

On the right side I have my heat tile (that DIY cord setup I wrote above). This is plugged into a pulse thermostat. The probe for said thermostat is resting directly on the tile, weighed down by the pictured hide on the right (it was initially glued but my stimmie was stronger than the hot melt so now it isn't...). I have a digital thermometer paired with it - probe also resting on the tile for quick readings. Left side has no heating, as we want to achieve a thermal gradient (cool to hot). Stimmies tend to want belly heat so I would not feel so bogged down with trying to get air temps up. If you had a carpet python then of course you would be doing things differently. Whilst I am certainly a novice keeper (and as a result would be hesitant to give out too much advice), I have noticed a tendency for people wanting to heat far too much of their enclosures up - both on here and other communities (not saying that is what you are doing, just an observation).

Also, in regards to the mess in the enclosure - I am only using up the Aspen I purchased when I got all the equipment. He will be going back to 100% newspaper once it runs out, but for now he gets to make some tunnels here and there. The torn up paper on the right is just something for him to move through (he tends to like half-hiding in it sometimes) + to help avoid substrate sticking to mice.

 

[Caitlin96]

Okay that makes sense [emoji4] well I think how we have it now is pretty good he seems happy with it (he comes out a lot more often now that he heat hide rock has been taken out, and he moves between the hide on the hot side to the hide on the cool side so he seems to be regulating himself pretty good). The probe is still on sitting on the slate rock and it’s reading 33.8 at the moment(it’s quite cold today too, just noticed you’re in WA too, so ~depending where you are~ you’ll know that), and that’s heated purely from the light shining onto it, so I’m pretty happy that he’s got the perfect belly heat hot spot with that rock in there now.

(Ps not judging your hands lol! I’ve quickly discovered its very awkward taking photos of enclosures when all you can see is your reflection in the background hahaha)


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[Caitlin96]

Hi again, everyone’s probably sick of me and this thread by now! But I was just thinking, I’m happy with how it’s all set up now, the slate rock hovers around 35 degrees so he has a hot spot to sit on. What I’m wondering now is, I have it on 24/7. The only thing that’s turns off is the UVB light which is on the timer set to turn on at 9am and off at 8pm. Should I be turning the heat light off at night too? The slate rock would probably retain enough heat to keep it pretty warm over night. Or should I just keep the heat light going 24/7? It’s infra-red which in my understanding (please correct me if I’m wrong!) means he can’t actually see the light coming from it, and so that’s why I’ve been leaving it in constantly. TIA!


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[Bluetongue1]

@caitlin, I am puzzled by what you have done given the advice that was offered. However ultimately the choice is yours.

What size heat cord did you buy – wattage and length? How did you attempt to utilise in the enclosure?

If using a caged heater within a snake’s enclosure, the cage should pass the touch test. Basically, if you cannot hold your hand on the cage for one minute because it gets hot and begins to burn, then it is a potential burn hazard for any reptile that can reach the cage around the heater.

You should not need to heat full on 24/7. Given you are clearly not cooling your animal over winter, then daytime heating should remain on for 12 to 14 hours (your choice) and should be able to be turned off at night. However, if temperatures consistently drop clearly below about 18 degrees, then it is preferable do something about this. If this is occuring, then the first thing to try, given your enclosure, it to try and reduce heat being lost. The glass walls and aluminium frame will conduct heat. In order to reduce this you can clad the sides, back and base with an insulating material such as styrene foam, double thickness cardboard (from packing cartons) or thick/fluffy towelling. The mesh top will also allow significant heat loss through convection. Part or most can be covered at night, again using towelling material or any other solid insulating material that will stop air flow. You need to do the latter by trial and error and monitor temps to achieve the desired results, whilst taking care to not place flammable materials in near contact with heat sources, which could create a fire hazard. This basically involves being careful and exercising common sense.

If you buy yourself a simple maximum/minimum thermometer from a hardware or department store, this will record the minimum temperature reached over night where it is placed. By this stage, you should also have purchased a reliable non-contact (infrared) thermometer, which should considered as basic equipment for anyone heating reptile cages.

 

[Caitlin96]

@caitlin, I am puzzled by what you have done given the advice that was offered. However ultimately the choice is yours.

What size heat cord did you buy – wattage and length? How did you attempt to utilise in the enclosure?

If using a caged heater within a snake’s enclosure, the cage should pass the touch test. Basically, if you cannot hold your hand on the cage for one minute because it gets hot and begins to burn, then it is a potential burn hazard for any reptile that can reach the cage around the heater.

You should not need to heat full on 24/7. Given you are clearly not cooling your animal over winter, then daytime heating should remain on for 12 to 14 hours (your choice) and should be able to be turned off at night. However, if temperatures consistently drop clearly below about 18 degrees, then it is preferable do something about this. If this is occuring, then the first thing to try, given your enclosure, it to try and reduce heat being lost. The glass walls and aluminium frame will conduct heat. In order to reduce this you can clad the sides, back and base with an insulating material such as styrene foam, double thickness cardboard (from packing cartons) or thick/fluffy towelling. The mesh top will also allow significant heat loss through convection. Part or most can be covered at night, again using towelling material or any other solid insulating material that will stop air flow. You need to do the latter by trial and error and monitor temps to achieve the desired results, whilst taking care to not place flammable materials in near contact with heat sources, which could create a fire hazard. This basically involves being careful and exercising common sense.

If you buy yourself a simple maximum/minimum thermometer from a hardware or department store, this will record the minimum temperature reached over night where it is placed. By this stage, you should also have purchased a reliable non-contact (infrared) thermometer, which should considered as basic equipment for anyone heating reptile cages.

Sorry, why are you puzzled(not asking sarcastically but genuinely)?

My partner went and brought everything we are now using for me one day because he knew I was stressing out trying to get everything right, I’ll have to double check the cord when I get home to let you know. We stuck it using appropriate tape to the underside of the enclosure (so not actually in the enclosure) but it didn’t seem to do much so we haven’t had it on. I figured the slate rock absorbing the heat from the light would be similar to a ceramic tile on the cord as was suggested and therefore about as good an idea.

There’s no way he could get to the light cage but I will do the touch test as soon as I’m home to be safe.

I had done some researching on cooling temperatures or not in winter but couldn’t find a conclusive answer as everyone seems to do it differently. I just want to do whatever’s going to be best for my boy. I will turn heating off tonight and monitor the temperature but I’m almost certain it will drop to below 18. In saying that, the slate will probably still hold heat, if that’s the case and the surface temp of the slate stays above 18 will that be sufficient even if the general air temperature drops?

Also I have ordered a non-contact thermometer online, just waiting for it to arrive still [emoji4]


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[Bluetongue1]

Apologies for the delay in getting back to you – my laptop is presenting problems. What you do to solve the heating problems is up to you and I am glad you feel that you have now adequately addressed them and that what’s what counts in the end. What I found puzzling was that Pythoninfinite had stated that use of a heat cord alone is all that is required and utilised as explained, by Blighty, it is the most cost efficient, appropriate and safe way to heat pythons. Secondly, you already had a ceramic heat emitter that appeared to be directional, especially mounted in a reflective hood, but replaced it with an infra-red radiant heat globe. Mounted inside the enclosure it should have performed similarly.

Use of the heat cord inside the enclosure, under a slate or ceramic tile, with an insulating base, would likely have provided the heat/temperature you were seeking. Taped externally to the base it cannot be expected to perform the same. The base is raised and therefore underneath the heat cord there is air, which can move. As this air heats up, it will carry heat away through convection. Above the cord is the 5mm glass base and then a substantial layer of substrate - looks like Aspen bedding. Whatever it is, this substrate has lots of ait trapped in it. Stationary air is a very poor conductor of heat and this layer will form an effective insulating layer. So there is no way that heat from the cord can achieve the desired heating effect inside the enclosure.

Please note that air is a good convector of heat but a very poor conductor of heat. It is probably worth your while to do some reading up on the transfer of heat. It will very much help make sense of what you are doing.

How are the night temperatures?