Jungles and Fatty Liver Disease

[BROWNS]

I've just had a really beautiful big adult male jungle die from fatty liver disease.It was very sad he stopped eating one day and just refused to eat.I had no idea what was wrong with him and other than not eating he showed symptoms of being very uncomfortable and got pretty stroppy too.I had one guy who knows his stuff take a look at him as the vets around here have no idea, and he said he'd be right if he didn't eat for another year he was that big.I got this jungle as an adult, approx 6 years old.

Anyway, to cut a longer story short i took him to the vet and attended the autopsy and when he was cut open the amount of fat that basically fell out was disgusting.The vet was far from clued up on reptiles of any kind but said the fat was an awful lot.Other than fat we found nothing else such as parasites etc so i had him send some of the kidney and liver to be tested.The results came back and it was as i had thought-FATTY LIVER DISEASE.The vet did say that the liver appeared the same as a fatty liver in a mammal.

So this is what happens if you pump too much food into jungles for too long and try to grow them too quickly.This also happens with diamonds and bhp's which i have myself and am in no big rush to grow them.

I haven't found any documentation on this topic in jungles specifically.Not sure about diamonds or bhp's.

Has anyone else had an animal die from fatty liver disease from the animal being overfed :?:

The pics are of the autopsy, and you can see for yourself how much fat there is.Wasn't real pretty that's for sure

 

[BROWNS]

Don't know why i couldn't put two pics in the same post.Here is the other pic.

 

[Greebo]

That's no good, sorry to hear it.
It's always a risk buying adults.You hope people have done the right thing but you never know for sure.

 

[BROWNS]

Yeah,i'd been advised not to buy adults as you could be asking for trouble.What i'm not sure of is if people know not to pump the tucker into their jungles, as the big boy that died came from quite a reputable breeder.

I was also advised ages ago not to pump feed my jungles (which i don't)and the advice on both parts has been pretty well spot on.

 

[Simon_Archibald]

 

[jake0476]

firstly im sorry to hear about your jungle it is very sad ... secondly that advice you are giving everyone is good as i dont believe in power feeding and it will make people think twice about doing stuff like that , yeah you might get them to breed quicker but is it really worth it in the long run...

 

[Farkurnell]

So this is what happens if you pump too much food into jungles for too long and try to grow them too quickly.This also happens with diamonds and bhp's which i have myself and am in no big rush to grow them.

Just wondering why you'd think the 3 species you mentioned would be more susceptible to the disease over any other species?

 

[craig]

sounds similar to one of my diamonds. any more info would help!!

 

[Simon_Archibald]

:wink:

 

[Keeth]

its not really the size that is the problem, in the wild bhp's mainly eat other reptiles which have quite low fat content whereas in captivity they are usualy fed rodents which are high in fat content

 

[Nicole]

Terrible news Browns, :-( but thankyou for sharing with us.
It is also good to see keepers willing to autopsy so that at least the beutiful animal's passing teaches us something.

 

[BuggieSmuggler]

Browns, THANK YOU!!!! I really appreciate the post, very painful for you but helpful for the rest of us. My thoughts, "**** no animal deserves that !"
I have bought pythons from the bloke Simon is talking about & it is scarey how fast his snakes grow. I was feeding 3 month old hatchlings every few days & hatchlings he'd kept back were TWICE the size of mine. As someone pretty new to herps it's a problem when the advice you're given by a "expert" is to pump them full.
I would love someone to give me a reasonable feeding protocol for diamonds,carpets, BHP's & children's. I have tended to feed a lot in the first year but them back off to once a month (apart from winter) after that. Is that OK?

 

[zoe]

i got my diamond at 2 1/2 months old and the most often he has ever eaten since i got him was 10 days! he is now 11 months old and eats every 3 weeks - VERY occasionally 2 weeks. i would have thought every few days wouldnt really give em enuf time to properly digest everything but then again what do i know... :? i like to at least make sure jules has emptied his system before his next meal. seems to be working fairly well i think cos he is growing nicely and has a good sized head compared to body etc etc.

 

[BROWNS]

Not exactly sure why the diamonds are susceptible to fatty liver but with jungles and bhp's i'm pretty sure it has a lot to do with their diet in the wild.Also the areas these species are found have pretty consistent or reasonably predictable seasonal conditions.These areas would have a reasonably predictable supply of prey.This applies to diamonds and others such as coastals also but don't know why diamonds are more prone than say a coastal.

As mentioned with bhp's their diet in the wild is mainly reptiles which have a low fat content .Some people may feed adult rats or mice to their bhp's which have high fat content which along with powerfeeding can cause fatty liver disease.I know 2 people who lost adult female breeding bhp's to fatty liver just recently.These had been grown too quickly and fed too much as adults.

Jungles diet in the wild is made up of mainly birds and small rodents.These also have low fat content.Many people will have experienced jungles that just won't touch rats no matter what.Feeding jungles adult mice with higher fat content along with power feeding if they take rats can cause fatty liver.Only one of my jungles won't take rats and the rest never get fed adult rats or mice depending on the size of the snake.

I feel that feeding every 3 days is too much.I'd hate to see what the guy feeds his animals that are heaps bigger at the same age.I feed all my snakes once a week and my bhp's don't get fed as big a rodent as any carpet the same size.

Having said that you can feed species such as inland carpets(murrays) and bredli twice as much and fast which won't affect them.

Hope this helps.........

 

[cwarren72]

I met a breeder who never feeds his snakes adult prey as this is the time that the prey start to fully develop their fat. He instead feed them sub-adults but just more of them as they contain less fat as they are spending all their energy into developing muscle and size.

 

[anothersnakeguy]

Hi,
I am new to the web site. I also have a new jungle carpet python, it is a year and a half old. I have been feeding it a small mouse every 3 to 4 days. After reading this thread, I have a concern that I may be power feeding the snake. Yesterday I measured it at 40 inches and its girth is about the size size of large mans thumb. What would be a good feeding schedule for this snake to keep it healthy? I will be posting some photos of her if you would like to evaluate her before replying.Thanks

Byron

 

[craig23]

Sorry to hear about your jungle.
Just wanted to say that I dont belive feeding a snake alot of food to grow it faster, sometimes dubbed "power feeding" has anything to do with overfeeding.

When people "power feed" it is a matter of feeding the snake as much as possible WITHOUT the snake becoming overweight, and infact I strongly belive this would immitate a normal good season for a wild snake.

I infact strongly belive much more "underfeeding" in captive snakes, ecpessially in elapids, goes on rather than overfeeding.

Powerfeeding is all about making as much food available to the snake to promote fast normal growth, not obesity. I agree it is much easier to overfeed a python than an elapid (because pythons can generaly eat larger prey items, and generally have slower metabolisms), however ending up with an overweight snake is not the intention of anyone powerfeeding. Infact it is well known that powerfeeding is usually an attempt to get a snake to breeding size faster, well its also well known that in most species, overweight specimens will not breed.

As far as underfeeding goes, I have seen much larger red belly black snakes, eastern brown snakes etc in the bush than I have ever seen in someones collection. If a snake is not overweight, it is not being overfed. Just the same as in any animal. and therefor I dont see any problem in "powerfeeding". Maybe this is simply immitating a good season in the wild, which i belive is what we should be providing in captivity. If we limited the amount of food given to any other animal which resulted in less than optimal growth, we would be considered cruel.

It is also my observation, that most snakes grow to almost adult size in the first 2 or 3 years of there life. this is when the snake requires the most food to sustain this growth (in proportion). As the snakes growth rates slow down the food amounts can be reduced in size. I belive that its this time in a snakes life when they can be overfeed and become overweight. Basically, it is very hard to overfeed a young growing snake kept at good temps, it will simply grow like a weed (which we consider healthy in all other animals). As growth rates slow, and the snake reaches adult size, its requirements become less, and then the keeper much watch what is fed.

After saying all this, im sure that most species of Australian snakes have evolved to be able to cope very well with unrelaible food supply, and feedng a snake less, resulting in a smaller adult size, probably doesnt affect the health of the animal at all. There is some interesting reading to be done on Black Tiger Snakes in regards to this. The snake may vary well grow to the appropriate size to enable it to survive with the amount of food available in its environment. This however can only be applied to juvinile snakes in the growth process, not an adult snake.

Just my thoughts, I would love to hear other peoples.

Regards
craig

 

[craig23]

Byron,

That is one of the nicest jungles I have seen amazing pattern. Are you in Australia?

Craig

 

[Simon_Archibald]

8)

 

[Simon_Archibald]