live birth

[Hickson]

OK. Simple (and short) answer first:

Angelrose - the evolution from egg-layer to live bearer would have happened over thousands of years, possibly millions. And it might not have happened the way you think. If I recall correctly, Red-bellies actually have a placenta (or a placenta-like organ), which has evolved on from species that just retain the eggs within the body. If you really want to know more, try "Biology and Evolution of Australian Snakes" by Allan Greer, of the Australian Musuem. Very technical but should answer all your questions.

Now to the fun part.

Snakewrangler - I'm really tempted to pick your arguments apart word by word, statement by statement, but I know that will serve little constructive purpose. You believe one thing and I believe another, both views are completely opposed. We agree on some facts, but not on the speculations of history and mechanisms.

I have no intentions of entering a debate on the topic because it would resolve nothing - I'm not gonna change your mind, and you can't change mine. So I'm happy to leave it at that. I'm happy to let everyone believe what they want, and as long as they do likewise for me (and their beliefs don't hurt anyone) , then I don't care what they believe in.

I didn't really 'dodge' the Big Bang issue because what I said is correct - evolutionists study biology, not the science of the formation of the universe. However, I can see your point of view - that when the world was formed, life was placed on it within seven days. But my point of view is: the universe was formed 14-15 billion years ago, the Earth was formed about 4.7 billion years ago, and the first forms of life appeared about 2 billion years ago. That's why evolutionists don't worry about the Big Bang.



Hix

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Well I shall make this my last post on the subject then.

I do respect your belief, I think it can be fun to have these discussions sometimes as deep down you know you're not going to change the others mind but you still are tempted to try :lol:

My point about the "eternal" matter or being has no regard of time, regardless of when the universe was created, there still had to be something there, what that "something" is will never be known for sure while we live and breathe, but there had to be something...

Anyway, I have enjoyed this little discussion. Now, I am going to bed....

Cheers.

 

[Hickson]

I do respect your belief, I think it can be fun to have these discussions sometimes as deep down you know you're not going to change the others mind but you still are tempted to try :lol:

Yeah, it probably could be fun SW, but I grew up with a sister who was a fullyfledged God-squad Bible-basher, who took every opportunity to attack and belittle my beliefs, and tried to prevent me from thinking for myself. She joined a church group called 'cell', and they used to meet at each other's homes once a week. Whenever they came to our home my sister would try and get my parents to banish me to my bedroom lest my mere appearance spread the seeds of doubt. When she got older she mellowed and realised she couldn't change my views so she stopped trying.

So I don't debate it at all. Had enough of the crap when I was young. And some people get offended way too easily.

We've gone a bit off-topic now, methinks.



Hix

 

[peterescue]

Why is the evolution of a fly different to the evolution of a snake or didnt God make the flies.
The Big Bang is only one of the theories as to the origin of the Universe. The Universe obviously exists but what it exists in is another question all together and if the hand of the Creator is your answer I wont dispute that. I can offer no other answer.
By the way for all the Bible literalists. Where did Lilith(Adams first wife) come from and where did she go after the split?

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Why is the evolution of a fly different to the evolution of a snake or didnt God make the flies.
The Big Bang is only one of the theories as to the origin of the Universe. The Universe obviously exists but what it exists in is another question all together and if the hand of the Creator is your answer I wont dispute that. I can offer no other answer.

Of course God made the flies as well, but their mere adaption is not evolution, it is simply that adaption!! If that fly or snake for that matter ever becomes a completely new animal, ceasing to be what it once was, then I will concede that to be evolution, luckily for you the "transitions" can never be seen as they take so long, you will never be proved wrong.

By the way for all the Bible literalists. Where did Lilith(Adams first wife) come from and where did she go after the split?

Lilith is a mystical hebrew legend, "possibly" (by translation only) mentioned once in the bible, although it can easily be shown that a true understanding of the text (by hebrew scholars) doesn't actually refer to a person, but rather a demon like figure. Who was never, nor will ever be, part of the human race.

 

[peterescue]

Evolution is adaption.
Oh, so the information in the Bible is interpretive, I see. So in fact Creationism could be easily shown to be a simplification of Gods work through evolution.

 

[amethystine]

My female marsh snake just gave birth to four babies last night. They have all shed and are all ready eating.

 

[dpeica]

Are you going to be selling them?

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Evolution is adaption.
Oh, so the information in the Bible is interpretive, I see. So in fact Creationism could be easily shown to be a simplification of Gods work through evolution.

Mate lifeless matter slowly increasing to eventually one day become the infinitely complex human being is not adaption, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Where did I say that the bible is interpretive, there is only one way to understand the bible, of course as with anything there are ways to twist things, as you have done here, but the simple fact is that Lilith is not a real thing, but rather a demonic figure.

It is a simple feat to show from biblical text that God could not have used evolution to create the universe and everything in it. And besides this, you cannot deny that there has to be something behind the creation, regardless how it was done, the probability that something intelligent was behind creation instead of some lifeless matter is huge, anyway my main point here is to show that God is the most likely conclusion of how the universe came into being and it is with His guidance that all things unfold, not "mother nature", this naturally leads to the conclusion that the bible, even if misunderstood is true and we are all accountable to God in the end.

Here is an example of how much "chance" is needed to end up with the world as we see it, and the complexity of this example is so reduced in comparison it shows that the idea of "chance" is ridiculous:

Image you have every signle element that makes up a computer spread out on a table, I am talking about every screw, every individual piece of every chip, absolutely everything. Do you think that the right circumstances to assemble this computer to a fully functional system like the one you are using now could ever happen by chance, or do you think that there would have to be some kind of intelligent intervention??

 

[Magpie]

As I understand it, live bearing and egg laying is a trade off.
Live bearers can easily bask to warm their eggs (yes, eggs... they are just kept inside) up when it's cold. They can escape from predation and take their eggs with them, however it is harder for the to escape. They can also remove their eggs from other dangers such as floods, fires etc. They can eat whilst growing the embryos, negating the need to be in top condition before breeding, they can 'hope' to find food during spring / summer when it is abundant.
Egg layers can either leave their eggs (like elapids) or incubate them (like pythons).
The elapids have the advantage of then being able to get on with their lives, ready for next season... but the eggs are unguarded, they can be too hot, too cold, eaten, flooded or whatever. The pythons have the metabolic cost of looking after the eggs, but possibly a higher hatch rate due to the care they put in. Also, if threatened by a dingo or something, they can escape quickly, leaving the eggs there to distract the predator. This is most useful in species that take longer to mature..... as large pythons do compared to the smaller elapids and colubrids. They do need to be in prime condition before breeding season, and as breeding starts at about the same time that prey becomes abundant, they will often only breed every 2nd or 3rd year.

 

[SnakeWrangler]

So do live bearing snakes have eggs inside them the same as eggs that are laid by egg layers??

 

[Hickson]

Also, keeping the eggs - or developing embryos - within the body makes it easier for the female to maintain them at the right temperature - eggs are at the mercy of fluctuating temps, whether left or cared for. Studies have shown that the embryos of livebearers develop more rapidly (because of the increased temps) than the embryos in eggs, so they are born earlier than their counterparts in eggs.

Live bearing results in a faster reproductive cycle.



Hix

 

[Magpie]

Yeah, that's what I meant by being able to bask to warm them up
SW- not quite the same, but more egg like than what mammals have.

 

[angelrose]

I think we may of gotten a little off topic, i shall stop asking a millions questions and go to the library.... Angel

 

[Jarvis78]

Organised religion is the single biggest money making scam on the face of the earth.
How many religios leaders live in poverty? The pope doesn't, the deli lama doesnt, muslem and jewish leaders don't, the queen of england is loaded. meanwhile millions of innocent chiledren die of malnutrition, and disese every year. where is all the money for them?
In my opinion anyone who beleives in something there is no physical proof for, and that tells others to do this or do that then its leaders do what ever is in their own best intrest, is kidding themselves.
Having said that I understand why people beleve in relgions and gods......because ignorance is bliss! :evil:

Evolution is adaptaion! it is the adaptation of an animal to its environment. Its not magic. just logic.

 

[Jarvis78]

had to throw my 2 cents in

 

[SnakeWrangler]

Organised religion is the single biggest money making scam on the face of the earth.
How many religios leaders live in poverty? The pope doesn't, the deli lama doesnt, muslem and jewish leaders don't, the queen of england is loaded. meanwhile millions of innocent chiledren die of malnutrition, and disese every year. where is all the money for them?

Couldn't agree more!! I am not talking about this kind of religion and the bible speaks nowhere of it!!

In my opinion anyone who beleives in something there is no physical proof for, and that tells others to do this or do that then its leaders do what ever is in their own best intrest, is kidding themselves.

Problem is that to believe in evolution takes alot of faith in things that can't be seen or have physical proof of, where is all the proof of the so called evolution of species, the fossil record don't contain proof, it is simply a record of animals that have existed, this is the common mistake people make, they think God is "faith" and "belief in the unknown" but evolution is just as equally uncertain, you have to make assumptions, no matter how reasonable they seem to you, they are still assumptions and are therefore a belief in something that cannot truly be known. Besides the evidence you take as "proof" of evolution is the same evidence I take as "proof" of God. Our "faith" is based on the same stuff, the only difference is the object of that "faith"!!

 

[peterescue]

[quote="SnakeWrangler
Where did I say that the bible is interpretive, there is only one way to understand the bible, of course as with anything there are ways to twist things, as you have done here, but the simple fact is that Lilith is not a real thing, but rather a demonic figure.[/quote]

Here

"Lilith is a mystical hebrew legend, "possibly" (by translation only)* mentioned once in the bible, although it can easily be shown that a true understanding of the text (by hebrew scholars) doesn't actually refer to a person, but rather a demon like figure. Who was never, nor will ever be, part of the human race."

*Translation from what/ Which of the numerous languages that the bible source texts(edited I my add) where written in are you referring?

 

[SnakeWrangler]

SW- not quite the same, but more egg like than what mammals have.

Therefore the transitional animal that produces something inbetween an embryo and an egg could never have successfully produced offspring, because it wouldn't survive in or out of the snakes body. Just as an egg couldn't survive inside the body and an enbryo couldn't survive outside of the body, something inbetween couldn't survive in either place.

 

[angelrose]

guys i dont really think this is the place for a religious debate... do you?
Angel