ethics and croc hunting

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basketcase

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i read an article in the paper today about hunting crocs safari style. basically 25 big crocs would be shot in the NT each year by game hunters. from what i understand the money raised (which would be quite a bit) would go into habitat conservation or something similar.

i noticed the same thing happens with rhino horns... conservationists would cut the horns in an effort to stop poachers killing the animals, but would have to decide whether to sell the horns on the black market and put the money into conservation or burn them... they ended up burning them.

i realise there might be a few differing views on the subject, so please keep the discussion clean and objective.

so does the end justify the means? or is it inexcusable to do such a thing?
 
I saw this on TV the other week when the shot the wrong croc and the "croc expert" they had on. Seems all he wanted to do was to promote and justify his safari croc hunts. It is going to happen and will start soon.

Apparantly only on "trouble crocs". I'll bet there will be a lot more trouble crocs around once it starts as they'll be finding all the excuses in the world to shoot some more and make a few more dollars. Watch the crocs disappear again as rogue hunters get out the and cash in the action.
 
I don't care what reasons they put forward it's a

[[Warning for swearing. If you can not get your point accross without swearing then do not bother- Admin]]

Why do we have go killing our native animals?
Thing that annoys me the most is that it will be big fat gun slinging Americans who think it's there god given right to kill whatever they want when ever they want, even in another country.
The first thing i heard about this was from an American land owner up in the NT and she wanted to start doing it on her property :evil: :evil:
They charge by the foot, the bigger the croc the more money they make......bye bye all our big crocs.

Surely history would show the people in charge that you can't do this, i don't care how well they moniter it, there will be ways these guides and owners will be able to break or bend the rules.

With any luck the crocs will get a few back, won't see me crying for them.

Should be stopped probably won't be :( :evil:
 
Stupid...hunting in the wild "wrong" harvesting in a farm "fine", why go out and kill something in the wild so disrespectful....
 
Yep its a disgrace. As Duga said...they are our native animals...not pests.

Unfortunately there will always be a market for it. I work with a bloke who loves hunting. He is paying big cash to fly to Tanzania and shoot anything and everything (His main goals is to bag a Lion I believe). I can't understand the mind set but its frighteningly common.

Say what you like about Steve but at leat he's out there trying to protect them and raise awarness. I saw A Current Affair the other night and he deliberately got the reporter and the Environment minister to help him catch a croc so they would beging to think of it as an animal - not a monster. Was a brilliant piece of work form him I thought.
 
We cull kangaroo's and that is considered sustainable so why not croc's too if it is deemed sustainable ? Problem croc's are either shot or go to farms with their future offspring ending up as skins anyway so why not make money out of it ? It not like they are endangered.
 
Hunting or Harvesting????

The biggest threat to our native wild life is habitat destruction. I think we have to seriously consider the merits of any industry that retains habitat and has a vested interest in the viability of that habitat.

I think the argument that makes the least sense to me is the ones that runs involve the removal of native habitat so we can graze meat (sheep/cattle) or grow "plantation timbers". I would much rather see the habitat retained and native animals and plants harvested.

The issue with ?hunting? is that it ads a different dimension. In the end it is essentially the same as harvesting in terms of the bottom line but the message it sends is very different. As a component of sound environmental harvesting/culling and presented as such I would probably give it the thumbs up. Sold as a blood sport to add to government coffers ? nope!
 
From what I can understand from what I saw, the landowners are allowed to cull a certain amount of crocs each year from there properties. Instead of doing this they want to allow hunters to shoot them instead and pay about a $1000 a foot. The croc will die either way. What I dont agree with is half arsed hunters coming in and taking more than the one kill shot to despatch the poor animal. If properly culled then it much more likely to be done properly.

Just my 2 cents worth.
 
I think it is very small minded to immediately dismiss the sustainable harvesting of wildlife as "evil" or "<insert mass of four letter words>". It's all very well to get emotional and pull your hair out, but it helps to think about this issue rationally. Having American tourists come to do a "Shooting Safari" would be a great way to maintain crocodile habitat. Tourists could come up, shoot a Water Buffalo, do some pig hunting, a bit of Barramundi fishing, bag a crocodile and see the sights of the the NT wetlands. Currently huge money is paid to shoot water buffalo, and permits to shoot Banteng are very pricey (the huge money paid usually includes permits to take the trophy out of the country, something difficult to get if you "break or bend the rules").
Anyway, crocs were almost hunted to extinction... Look at the amazing speed at which they've repopulated. I think the population can handle a few mad American trophy hunters.

Lets not forget Kangaroo harvesting. I have'nt heard of the rapidly declining numbers of Eastern Grey, Western Grey, Euros or Red Kangaroos. I'm in support of a plan in which the entire marginal area of western NSW be turned over to kangaroo harvesting, completely stopping sheep production in that region. Only 15% of Australias sheep are farmed in the marginal areas, and farms are relatively unproductive now much of the top soil has blown away. Why not harvest our wildlife as a resource? They are far less damaging to the environment. Removal of sheep would limit the continuing problem of land degradation that affects much of the arid interior.

Also, kangaroo meat is delicious!

-Henry
 
When are they gonna start culling problem humans.? Like the herps down south.HEHE.
 
Croc numbers are obviously increasing enough that males are being forced to find new territory. A couple of weeks ago there was a 2 mtr salty at Onslow, i know it isn't that big but demonstrates that they are moving into new areas where they havn't been seen regularly before. If this is happening at the edges of the range, what's happening in the middle.
 
Regulated Safari hunts have been working successfully in the southern African nations for the last twenty years, with the results being lots of money for conservation, for the local communities, healthy populations of wildlife, and a complete cessation of illegal poaching and massive reduction in bushmeat trapping.

Under similar conditions I can't see why it wouldn't work with crocs in the NT. If landpowners get greedy and overshoot their crocs, then they won't have as many the next year to be shot (unless they buy some from the croc farms).

:p

Hix
 
As Hix said regulated hunting in Africa has actually increased game populations and preserved habitat. That is because the animals have a montary value. Trophy hunters only want to shoot big old male animals and a large population of the species and vast areas of habitat are needed to produce these old guys. In the big picture the hunters are paying the way for a whole population of animals to survive in preserved habitat and are playing the role of the predators that are missing from the scene. I've taken kudu, nyala, eland, warthog, impala, zebra etc with bow and arrow and feel I've done more for the conservation of animals over there than any armchair greeny!
Same thing goes on in USA with great success. Why not here?
If you think crocs aren't already being shot in Australia you've got your head in the sand. As mentioned I reckon that the huge bucks that this could bring into conservation (as well as rural communities) would be worth far more in the big scheme of things than the few individuals that would be shot.
 
Quote: ?
and feel I've done more for the conservation of animals over there than any armchair greeny!


I would'nt quite go that far... In Africa the species the majority of tourists want to hunt are extraordinarily valuable, but are also a prey species. The African Wild Dog (Lycaon pictus) were exterminated by private game park wardens when they entered these game reserves to hunt the animals specifically kept and bred for game reserves. Private Park Wardens are'nt entirely responsible, but they have'nt helped the wild dogs plight. It is in these parks where the "conservation" was taken too far, protecting one resource species whilst actively killing a species in need of protection. To give an idea of how rare the dogs are are, there are far less Wild Dogs than Cheetah (3-5500 wild dogs compared to 9-12000 cheetah) in the wild today.

Poor wild dogs, they are such special animals.

Oh and if you have a chance, go to Dubbo Zoo. I think they still have Wild Dogs out there!

-H
 
Nephrurus, it is small minded tp belittle the opinionsof others and denigrating their right to an opinion because you feel they are to emotive have no rationale. If they wish to approach the issue from an emotive viewpoint that is their perogative.
Rationale isnt always ethically or morally right.
Then again neither is emotional and irrational but I didnt see a mass of 4 letter words. You just made that up to try a steel your stance.

To the issue at hand, I feel that these crocs are doomed anyway. Culling permits will see to that. If they are lucky they will get a clean and quick death but more likely they'll have to be tracked down and finished off after the big game hunter fluffs his first shot and wings it.
Still had croc hunting in PNG when I was a kid and no one thought much about the rights or wrongs of it then. Times have changed and lot more people feel that killing things for fun is not a pursuit that they wish to indulge or encourage.
Me, i dont know, I used to shoot and I will admit I enjoyed it. I also enjoyed eating it.
I was looking for my croc teeth but some one seems to have taken them
 
If they are lucky they will get a clean and quick death but more likely they'll have to be tracked down and finished off after the big game hunter fluffs his first shot and wings it.

I think the plan is to trap the croc first Peter so the hunter can shoot him through the cage to ensure that they can't escape injured. Sounds like an exciting challenge for all you would-be-Rambos out there. I'd be proud to have that head on my wall. "Yep ...shot him from 1 metre away..was a hell of a shot cause I had to miss the cage wire to get him".
:)
Does anybody know what percentage of profits from African game hunting goes back to conservation? It's a good story but I'll bet its not much.
 
Linus said:
Does anybody know what percentage of profits from African game hunting goes back to conservation? It's a good story but I'll bet its not much.

When I was in Zimbabwe in '85 this is what I was told (and confirmed later by Kevin Langham, and one of my uni lecturers who had worked with elephants in Botswana):

Around the large National Parks are designated hunting areas. Hunting can only occur in those areas, so the main population survives and breeds in the parks, and when they reach carrying capacity and population spills into the hunting areas they can be culled.

The European/American tourist pays the Zimbabwe equivalent of NPWS a set fee for what he wants to shoot (I think back then it was about $15,000 if you want an elephant). Half the money goes to the NPWS, and the other half (i.e. 50%) goes to the local community around the hunting area.

The Safari sets up a camp within the hunting area. The tourist/hunter has to hike in with the group (some use motor vehicles to get to the camp, but the hunting is done on foot). For that you need porters, gunbearers, cooks, guides and other people to set up camp etc. Those people come from the local community and are paid to work.

When the hunter finds his elephant and shoots it, if it isn't a clean shot that kills it there are two or three other marksmen there to bring it down immediately.

The hunter has his photo taken with his foot on it's head, and that's all he gets for his $15K.

The locals then process the dead animal - they cut it up and take the meat for food for their families, and they take the various body parts to turn into handicrafts which are sold as souvenirs. If the hunter wants a souvenir of 'his' elephant he has to buy it.

On the way back to camp the hunting party might come across a herd of buffalo/zebra/antelope, and the hunter decides he wants to bag one of those aswell. The NPWS representative pulls out his notebook, advises the hunter what it will cost, and gets him to sign an official I.O.U. Then the whole process is repeated.

The local communities who were poor and relied on bushmeat for much of their food (and didn't care about poachers wantonly killing the wildlife) now actively protect the forests because it is providing them with food, individual incomes, and money into the local community. A win/win situation all round.

Anyway, that was the situation 20 years ago in Zimbabwe. God only knows what's happening there now. Mugabe has effectively killed tourism in the country and it's possible that the wildlife in the National Parks are now being ravaged. However, similar programs exist in Botswana, South Africa and Zambia (and I believe other countries are attempting to start up aswell).

:p

Hix
 
Thanks Hix. After reading that post of yours I have just consulted with my work mate who is heading over there in a month.

It seems you are fairly close to the mark there. He has said there is a fee that is paid to the hunting guides, then there is an area fee which you pay based on how long you are there (for him 21 days = US$6k). Then for every animal you shoot there is a trophy fee (Lion = US$4k, Croc = US$1k).

And like you said there is a government employee with them the whole time to note down what gets killed.

So it's clear that quite a bit does go back to the government. It would be tough to ascertain whether that money goes back into conservation directly or not but I guess if its policed properly then there is some merit in it.

Live and learn.

In any case I still despise the idea of hunting for trophies.
 
Yeah, I don't see the thrill either. But oif the animals are going to be culled anyway, and someone wants to pay big bikkies to do what you would normally do for nix, and there are lots of other non-financial benefits that flowon from the venture, then it would be foolish to pass up that kind of opportunity. I can see that, and I certainly agree with the principle and the way it works.

If anyone is interested, just go to Google and search for "Campfire conservation" (CAMPFIRE is the name of the program) or go to this website http://www1.worldbank.org/devoutreach/fall99/article.asp?id=28#campfire for a report on the benefits in Zimbabwe (note: article in this report was written in 1999 - things have changed in Zimbabwe, for the worse).

:p

Hix
 
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