Advice needed...before I verbally abuse my vet

[OuZo]

NOT HAPPY JAN :evil: :evil: :evil:

For those of you that remember my sick coastal Nymph, he was put on a course of antibiotics...a Baytril injection every day for 3 weeks. We were told and shown how to do this (under the skin) and a few days later was advised by someone that Baytril should never be put under the skin and will cause necrosis of the flesh if done so. Then I was told the same thing by someone else. So I rang my vet to ask him if that was ok and to double check that I didn't misinterpret him somehow but they told me that Baytril is ALWAYS given under the skin and has never caused necrosis of the flesh and that my friend (they kept pointing out that he wasn't a vet) was welcome to give them a call and he would talk to him about it personally. Well anyway, I've just finished helping the poor bugger shed and have found very suspicious looking spots on him which I think is from the injections :evil: . I'm sooooo not happy right now. The advice I was after was basically does this look like the beginnings of dying tissue to you guys? In some spots the scales have gone white and in others they're going grey. I'll be calling the vet on Monday :evil:

Sorry if some of the pics are blurry...after me pulling his skin off for the last half hour I didn't want to have him out too much longer than needed...plus he wasn't all that happy :shock:

 

[sobrien]

who's the vet?

 

[beknluke]

It doesn't matter who the vet is right now - what Zo needs are peoples opinions on the scales.
I would have no idea what the beginnings of necrosis looks like - I have only seen it in advanced forms.
Does anyone have any experience with injecting Baytril under the skin and it having a similar effect? Or have some people never had an issue with injecting it into their snakes?
ADVICE needed I reckon.
Good luck Zo - we're thinking of ya
Bex

 

[serpenttongue]

Zoe, sorry to hear about this...BLOODY VETS!!!! Yes it does look like the beginning of dying tissue. Well, maybe not dying but definately damaged. You may also find that the flesh underneath is possibly bruised. One question, though. Are these patches exactly where the injections were given? If so, then i would blame the Baytril.

Also, why were you helping Nymph shed, was he having trouble shedding? If so, are these pale patches sticky? Often when a snake has been exposed to high humidity scale rot kicks in, but scale rot/blister disease wont show itself until after a shed, and it can sometimes look like the patches Nymph has. I dont believe you've had the humidity up or done anything to Nymphs husbandry to cause this, i just thought i'd tell you that the patches do look like early stages of scale rot. I repeat: I dont think it's anything you've done, Okay?

I would say that Baytril is the culprit. Nymph will probably be left with a scar from this, but it will get better with each shed. You just have to hope that the muscle underneath isnt badly damaged. The fact that it's affecting individual scales says to me that it is caused by Baytril. Scale rot will affect patches of up to 10 scales.

Poor Nymphy
Hang in there, Zo

 

[cwarren72]

Zoe I used to have a big Diamond which I got off a guy that wasn't looking after him properly and when I got him he had sores on him from where he had pieces of wire stuck in him (long story how) but after they healed he ended up with scars that looked exactly like that on Nymph, Not saying it is but looks exactly the same. Hopefully it may just e a scar

 

[Splitmore]

I wouldn't be too worried at this stage judging by those pics, they just look like a few scales that might have been damaged while the snake was preparing to shed. Are you injecting into the same spot each time? Baytril is usually injected into muscle tissue. From what I understand is that anything injected just under the skin is transported directly to the kidneys where it is broken down before it has a chance to work. I'm no vet either, but have treated plenty of sick snakes over the years. I'd be consulting another vet, maybe one who has treated plenty of reptiles. I know most professionals don't like to be told their business so maybe you should take the snake elsewhere.
Is your snake showing any signs of improvement?

 

[olivehydra]

Hey Zoe,
I posted a thread with very similar pics ages ago (cant find sorry), I believe they were thermal burns. White patches of scales on an olive. I didnt think there was any way a burn could have occured but the general consensus was that it was a burn. Healed no probs so hopefully you will have do dramas.

 

[Hickson]

Zoe,

I agree with Splitmore - contact a few reptile vets and see what they say about injecting Baytril under the skin.

And don't jump to conclusions - if those scales are at the sites of the injections, it may just have been the physical action of injecting that caused thes cales to change colour, not necessarily the Baytril. NOTE: I am just offering another possible scenario, not suggesting it is or isn't fleshrot.

Maybe Geckodan can offer some insight?



Hix

 

[NoOne]

Yep i wouldn't concerned yet, looks like scale damage prior to shedding and the color is just what happens sometimes after snakes shed.
Just to be safe i would take him back to a different vet, the one your using sounds like he doesn't know his **** from his elbow.

 

[beknluke]

So does that mean that it should be common knowledge that 'baytril causes necrosis if injected under the skin' ?
If that IS the case, then I think that you would be well within your rights to have words with the vet Zo.
Good luck hun

 

[BROWNS]

Baytril is definiely to be used intra musularly,it does hurt and can scar but from what i've found from my experience with baytril is that it works very quickly when it works.I took my last snake with a respiratory infection to my local vet, no reptile vets where i am and even she knew that baytril was to be used IM but she didn't have any decent enough scales to get the exact weight of the snake being treated to work out how much the dosage of baytril was to be used and i think the more spot on with measurements etc leaves a smaller margin for error especially with smaller juvenile snakes.

I have not heard of baytril causing necrosis but have noticed it does leave a tiny scar which i guess is a form of necrosis or dead and healed scar tissue but nothing like the skin or flesh rotting away etc.I really hate having to give baytril injections the snakes don't like it at all...small ones don't anyway your big adults would have a bit more padding i'd say.

It does look a bit off colour zoester similar to some patches i had appear on a jungle before shedding but there's no signs of it now,i recall many others having similar patches on their snakes too.You should be fine zoeye but keep a good eye on it and any change head to a better vet,good luck.

 

[africancichlidau]

It may be the aftermath of the earlier prob you had with it losing scales. Either that or the Baytrill which in my books, as you know, says should be injected IM. either that or it's turning albino!

 

[Wrasse]

Baytril can and does cause necrosis and the very spots you have photographed above could certainly have been caused by it (assuming your husbandry is not at fault as voiced above). However, if given correctly and carefully, the chances of this happening are lowered. The problem is usually aggravated by the medication being given too close to skin tissue or leaking out through the injection site. Baytril stings and likely your snake will have leapt around a fair bit during these injections, compounding the problem. The jury is out on IM or SC Baytril injections, it seems different vets like to advise differently.

These spots will slough and will heal, with a scar that will slowly fade. Make sure you keep him on clean dry bedding and you can rinse him/dab the spots in a diluted chlorhexidine solution every couple of days to keep them clean. DO NOT use drying agents, like powders on the moist wounds, these will cake and seal the wounds and the wounds should be allowed to drain and dry at their own pace.

There are alternative injectable medications available for reptiles and I would advise your Vet look these up and learn how to use them, where possible, in place of Baytril.

Further reading:

http://www.anapsid.org/resources/rxdose.html
Baytril (enrofloxacin) Lizards and snakes: Highly cytotoxic and nephrotoxic - give with SC/IC fluids.

http://www.prestigeherps.co.uk/infomation_sheets/Drug dosage guide.doc
Baytril A:10mg/kg SC PO eod Most commonly used reptile antibiotic. Can get nasty reaction at inj. site.

 

[peterescue]

The manufacturers of Baytril recommend that only the primary dose be injected and subsequent doses be oral.
As Wrasse says, it stings and the jury is out. Some vets recommend it be injected for the whole course because it is more effective in its delivery.
Oral and injectable Baytril, Clavylox and Fortum are the main antibiotics used. Generally you vet will use the one they think is more appropriate.
but,
What you have in the pics is minor scale deformation and lack of melanin that I am assuming were noticed post shed. These are commonly found and are generally the result of very minor burns or bruising. They are usually unnoticable prior to the shed. As stated already they will disappear over time and sheds. The white scales will probably be dark next shed.

The thing about interventionist medicine is it does have side effects and cause damage. Thats the price we pay. Surgery is a good example.
I'd be holding off from abusing your vet

 

[rockman]

just curious , has the snake gone off it's food lately ? is it curled up and doesn't move aroud that much ? has it got a bad attitude lately ? doe's it look like a balck smudge starting over it ? thanks Jim

 

[whatsup]

a mate of mine had his diamond operated on not long ago and had to follow up the surgery with injections to stop any infections.she came up with these same marks.apperantly it's quite normal.he still had the marks checked out though just to be safe.

 

[moosenoose]

Hmmm.... get a second vets opinion Zoester, at least go in armed with the opinion of a professional vet! I hope it's not what what you suspect, but it looks a little ominous Best of luck.

 

[shamous1]

He'll be o'k Zoe.

 

[OuZo]

Ok kids, I'll try to respond to every question and comment so this will be long lol

Nick, it's hard to tell if these spots are exactly where the injections were given cos no injection sites were marked or anything! All I can tell you is that they seemed (once again I didn't have a fantastic look at positioning etc yesterday) that they were consistent with places that I would have injected. By that I mean that I would hold him in my hand from underneath and inject a little to the left of the dip in the centre of his back, or his spine. One other interesting thing that clicked last night...when I injected him it would usually come straight up in a little bump under the scales where the fluid was sitting. A few times those lumps didn't go down and he had a few there a while after the course was finished. I'm now thinking that these funky patches (I counted 6 yesterday) are possibly from those lumps.

Yesterday was the 2nd time Nymph shed since he started eating again and both times I've had to help him. The first time he only got about a third of the way down before he gave up...I left him 1-2 days to give him time to do it himself but he just stopped so I soaked him in a tub for a little while and gave him a hand. He's so good...he did this little voodoo thing on me where he jerks his head like he's gonna bite me but doesn't and of course I crap myself lol. But eventually he let me hold on to the skin and he slowly pulled himself out of it. Yesterday was a lot harder...all he got off by himself was the top of his head....I had to do the chin and whole body. He cracked it a bit more this time but at one stage he sat there while I got it off his lips lol. It's strange (and I'm sure I'll get told off for this) but the skin on his chin was very hard to get off where as the skin on his body wasn't even attached...he was just sitting inside it. But anyway, it wasn't until after everything was off that I noticed the patches. I can't see how it could be scale rot but I guess it's always a possibility! I say that cos he's simply on newspaper with a water bowl in the cool end...I wonder if maybe that's why he's not shedding well cos it's not humid enough? But improper shedding can be caused by malnutrition apparently so I'd be guessing that's probably more likely the cause.

Hey Splitmore, I was injecting into different spots each time but I wouldn't be surprised if sometimes I picked him up and thought "that looks like a good spot" and it was one of the ones I'd used before. I also found that they're all in the back 1/2 or 1/3 of the body and I never gave him any injections in his top half. I had a look in 3 different books yesterday and they all said Baytril should be intramuscular...none said sub cut :?. I'm not sure about it being broken down in the kidneys but I don't feel like it's worked...he's no better. Infact he regurgitated a chicken for the first time since having them. I have a feeling the injections haven't fixed the infection that showed up on the blood tests...whether that's because it wasn't given properly or because it's not sensitive to Baytril I don't know. I don't think I should be naming the vet here but I think I should hopefully be able to say that he works every now and then with an extremely good vet (so I've heard) and seeing that he has access to him I kinda assumed that the whole "sub cut" thing would have come indirectly from him :?.

Allo Dorian, not sure if it could be a burn...he doesn't do a lot with himself these days and he's never been a climber...I guess it's always a possibility?

Hixbiscus, will definitely call a few vets to see if they inject under the skin or IM. Might even call some interstate ones seeing as we don't have a lot of reptile vets here lol.

Stevie, just to sound like a doofus, how do they get scale damage before shedding? As in what actually happens for them to become damaged?

Browneye, I honestly don't know if they have had any effect...I assumed (and I could well be wrong) that the infection would be in his stomach seeing as it's so inflamed and I believe infection can occur in a very inflamed area. If they are connected then it hasn't worked cos his lump is as big as ever.

Hey maybe he's turning albino Philly lol

The problem is usually aggravated by the medication being given too close to skin tissue or leaking out through the injection site.

Thanks Wrasse, that's actually really helpful as a few times a little bit of it leaked out :?. You have to twist the needle until you feel resistance before removing it and a few times no matter how long I twisted the damn thing there was no resistance there and a bit came back out. That would make a lot of sense as to why those patches are there. He actually was extremely good when giving them as he has been with everything else. A lot of the time he didn't even flinch but the worst he ever did was jump a bit when I injected it...he's such a good snake . Should I definitely be treating these areas or do you think I could just leave them (and him) alone? He's been through SO much and I try to bother him as little as possible these days.

Peter, I was a tad annoyed when I found these yesterday hence the whole "abuse the vet" thing lol. It's just that he assured me that it wouldn't be a problem and if these are caused by Baytril he was wrong. I understand side effects and risks...if you know about them then you can choose to take them. I'm also annoyed that if they were ineffective because of being injected the wrong way then the poor bugger had 21 useless (and possible painful) injections :evil:

Rockman, there's a MASSIVE story behind this snake (longer than this post :lol but basically he regurgitated rats and mice, then went off food, then started eating chickens. He has a big lump in his stomach which is actually his stomach wall which is very inflamed and blood tests said he had an infection somewhere. He doesn't move around a lot but he's been a bit better since we gave him fluids a while back. He has a bad attitude in his cage sometimes but once out you can do anything to him and he won't bite. I don't really know about a black smudge...don't think so.

Hey moose I think we're running out of vets lol.

Lol thanks Shane

Thanx for all the advice guys...I'll call some vets tomorrow and see what they say about IM vs sub-cut. I'm not sure which vet to go to now if we change cos we're running out lol. Will let ya know how I go

 

[Wrasse]

Ouzo, there are a couple of things you have said in this thread that would make me feel a little nervous about this treatment.

Firstly, Baytril injectable daily is a really heavy dose when there are alternatives that can be a little nicer. I am not a vet and will not question yours as to why. He had his reasons. However, Baytril can be given less frequently than daily or given orally and that can make it less painfull and yet still be effective.

Snakes should be injected into the first third (or half) of the body, up behind the head and neck. This is to give it more time to 'circulate' before being flushed by the kidneys.

I have never had to twist a needle when giving an injection. If you have resistance to the needle coming out, you were probably IM, not SC and his muscles were tense. If the vet told you to twist the needle to remove it, I would like to know why, as this is a new one to me. Slip in, release dose, slip out. Anything else happens and something is wrong. Start again and choose a different spot/angle.

------------------------------

A couple of Baytril hints for the future, everyone is welcome to discuss them with their vets.

Try giving the first Baytril treatment as an injection, then all follow up treatments orally. The dose rate for the oral is different (it isn't the same amount as is injected) however, it can be diluted with water and doesn't sting or damage scales like the injectable does.

If you have to give injections, once you have your injectable dose drawn up, double the quantity of fluid in the syringe by adding sterile water. This increases the amount of fluid to be injected, but lowers the sting and reduces the risks of tissue damage.

Ask your vet to do a culture and find an alternative medication to treat with if possible.