what do you consider to be unsatisfactory conditions?

[misky]

I am a neat freak when it come to my animals and can't even bare the thought of and of my pets living in anything but excellent conditions but I am wondering if I am just pedantic or normal.

Today I went to a wildlife park and was very unimpressed with some of the things that I saw:

* a crocodile in a small pool with the fence only about a metre tall in one place (can't they jump up out of the water and possibly bite a child if he/she unknowingly stuck their arm over?)

* a large monitor in an enclosure with an area less than a metre square of shade (which I imagine would disappear later in the day as the sun moved) on a day like today? (which was roughly 40 degrees)

* a number of large monitors that had not managed to shed properly (yes iknow that this happens occasionally but i am talking about quite a few monitors at the same time)

* 5 various carpet pythons in one 1.5X1X1m enclosure (most around the 4 -5 foot mark) all approximate measurements

* numerous python enclosures with with 2 or 3 sheds lying in them (all from the one snake)

All these things really disturbed me but I am only reletively new to herps so I was seeking the thoughts of some others more experienced than myself on weather these sort of conditions are exceptable or if I am getting myself all stired up over nothing.

Cheers,
Misky

 

[serpenttongue]

No they are NOT exceptable, but this is a wildlife park we're talking about. And it's possible that a wildlife park only cares about $$$$$$$$.

 

[Rennie]

They do sound like quite small enclosures for a reptile park which you'd think would have plenty of room, I feel sorry for all those reptiles. The python skins on their own shouldn't be a problem, but I'm assuming that their cages hadn't been cleaned at all for long time to have that many skins, and that many faeces is a big problem for bacteria growth etc. I'm no expert either though so I could be wrong but from your description it doesn't sound too good.

 

[Scale_Addiction]

i dunno about the meter of shade bit, or the small croc fence,

but monitors do not shed, they 'flake' off skin as such, very rarely will you see a 'clean' monitor, with all fresh skin, mine usually always has flakes coming off him. we just mist him daily to help with the 'shedding' as such.

also, i only quickly read the measurements of the tanks, but those carpet tanks sound legit,
also, alot of reptile parks leave snakes shedded skin in their enclosure for wow factor, the skins are often grotty, but it's a fairly frequent practice.

 

[michaelh]

unsatisfactory.

I also cant see what the problem is.
monitors dont shed a whole skin at once as has been said.
A monitor dosent min temps of forty degrees either.
multipul skins in the cage are there on purpose and as the cages are cleaned the skins are put back. this is so besides the sleeping carpet visitors have somthing else of interest in the enclosure.
and multipul display animals is done for the wow factor also.. they dont spend there life like that and are rotated to minimis stress levels.

crocodile in a small pool.? they luy in 4 inches of water with no dramas at all in real life.

misky did you have a chat with a keeper there.? you may have lernt somthing with out going to this trouble.
what ever you do, dont name the park or you may find yourself in real strif.

 

[Dicco]

I can see the problem, 5 adult Crapets to an enclosure of that size is not sufficient, a 1m fence to a crocodile enclosure is not adiquet, monitors may like to bask at 40 degree but what happend when they've reached their max temp, how can they stop from over heating if the shade dissapears. Crocdiles do not live in 4 inches of water, at times they maye have top survive in such harsh conditions, but it should not be how they live their life.

If it was only skin sheds that's ok, they do no harm, so long as no build up of feaces were in there.

 

[michaelh]

unsatisfactory.

oh dicco.

its not about 5 animals in a cage that size.. its about how long they are there. Ever seen a mating ball. they dont spread out over that much space.lol..
animals get carted around the contry by mobile displays most of the lives in bags, one would think that would be worse.

the monitors had shade. no one has ever said there wasnt any, but misky sugested it might have disapeared later in the day.

crocodile spent alot of time in the wild submurged in shallow water waiting to abush prey, it has to be shallow to lauch them selfves out of the water. so this is natural.
croc ponds in farm and parks are designed so this is not possible hence the fence and the way the pond would be set up.
do you think you can have a croc pond in a public place with out having its safty approved.
the ideal place for a croc is not in a park at all. so anything other than the wild is not how they should live there lives.

and last but not least there was no mention of fecal matter.. so dont try and sugest a bigger problem your self, or take away the real nonsense in the post by adding other posibilitys.
parks work to guide lines.. if you have a problem with that lobby you parks and wild life department.. they are supose to look after it after all.
why bag the park with out even saying anything to them.

 

[misky]

unsatisfactory.

misky did you have a chat with a keeper there.? you may have lernt somthing with out going to this trouble.
what ever you do, dont name the park or you may find yourself in real strif.

No I did not chat with the keeper as once my money was paid at the door he was no where to be seen again.

You will notice that in my original post I have taken exteame care not to identify the park in question by name or location and have even taken extra care not to mention individual species kept to avoid anyone recognising this establishment.

If there is no problem I am happy to hear that even though I would never allow my animals to live in those kind of conditions.


With the shedding the flaking was not so much a concern as areas around the toes and tail had bandlike areas of dead skin which I have been told can cut off circulation and become a problem but i seems I have been miss informaed and I am happy to hear that it's not an issue.


This thread was never started with the intention of discrediting the establishment hence why I have been so careful not to identify them. I was only asking if these sort of conditions are standard practice and allowable and as I am only new to all this I was asking for opinions as I openly admit that I do not know.

 

[Dicco]

Most carpets don't aggrevate in mating balls, and that many living to gether can be very stressful on the animals.

If the monitors had shade it's ok, but if it dissapeared than it wouldn't be.

Crocs don't spend most of their time waiting in ambush in shallow water, they will stay in the deepr in sections of water bodies a hell of a lot more and I'd like to see a croc living in four inches of water. There are places where substandard enclosures are approved, I know of one place in peticular.

And read my post properly, I stated it was ok with the shed as long as they cleaned feaces, I never said they enclosures were full of crap or anything remotely like it.

I'm not bagging any park, but if there is a park that keeps animals in these sort of conditions, I will not hesitate to bag them, and I'd happily say it to their faces, I've done it to the owners of disgusting pet shops before.

 

[misky]

unsatisfactory.

why bag the park with out even saying anything to them.

If you read my post again you can hopefully see this is not my intention it was a post of CONCERN not malice.

Is it not better to be concerned and then find out that you a wrong than to ignore what might be a bad situation?

Basically isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

Also you say that I bagged this place? Yes I have said it is not what I would want for my reptiles and that it did not impress ME but can you please show me where I said it was wrong? Michealh I think you will find that my post is asking a question so that i can be better informed it is NOT making a statement that the conditions are not good enough. I am happy to learn new things like that the snake shins and monitor skin are not an issue and simply there for wow factor but please do not imply that I have made statements which I have not made.

 

[snakegal]

unsatisfactory.

Misky, I totally agree with you! It's better to be concerned and question what is safe/ethical for the animals than to forever wonder, or maybe worse, not even be concerned in the first place. Many people just accept things they see and don't give it any thought once they've left, so good on you for caring!

You were not bagging the park in any way and honestly asking for advice on the matter. People shouldn't be putting words into your mouth, or implying what your intentions were, as it's clear you were honestly just concerned for the animals! Good on you! :wink:

I guess at the end of the day peoples opinions on what is right or wrong and acceptable and not acceptable will be different, so Misky, don't take comments to heart, but if you think there is cause for concern, report it to the appropriate body or authority. That's probably all you can do at this stage, if you feel there is something wrong with the standards. After all no one else saw the conditions but you, so it's your judgement call.

Goodluck!

why bag the park with out even saying anything to them.

If you read my post again you can hopefully see this is not my intention it was a post of CONCERN not malice.

Is it not better to be concerned and then find out that you a wrong than to ignore what might be a bad situation?

Basically isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

Also you say that I bagged this place? Yes I have said it is not what I would want for my reptiles and that it did not impress ME but can you please show me where I said it was wrong? Michealh I think you will find that my post is asking a question so that i can be better informed it is NOT making a statement that the conditions are not good enough. I am happy to learn new things like that the snake shins and monitor skin are not an issue and simply there for wow factor but please do not imply that I have made statements which I have not made.

 

[diamond_python]

I am with you Dicco

 

[Hickson]

I'm not going to comment on whether this is a good or bad fauna park, because I know from experience that the general public's views are often clouded by wrong assumptions, misinformation and false impressions. It may be a bad fauna park. Then again, maybe not. Consider this:

There is no description of what is in the Lacie enclosure. Was it totally bare? No bushes to hide in or trees to climb? What was it that provided the shade in the first place, and why would it not provide shade later in the day? Would the fence not provide some shade?

The crocodile pool was described as small, not shallow. It may be quite deep. Furthermore, we have no real dimensions - is it small in relation to the animal, or just smaller than the crocodile pools at Australia Zoo?

"5 various carpet pythons in one 1.5X1X1m enclosure (most around the 4 -5 foot mark) all approximate measurements"
I don't know about you guys, but I know lots of people who overestimate the size of snakes they see, especially if it's not laid out straight (Snake removers will back me up here!). And many people tend to underestimate the size of inanimate objects (not sure why).

Imagine this scenario - 5 carpets about 3-4 ft, all from the one clutch, which have been brought up together in a 5ft x 3ft x 3ft tank. Maybe the snakes aren't that stressed.

The shedding has already been dealt with adequately.

Interestingly, we haven't heard what the rest of the park was like - the bird aviaries, the mammal enclosures etc. Were they good or bad?

Small fauna parks usually run on a shoestring budget, because they don't have as many visitors as the zoos in the major centres. Yes, they are worried about $$$$$$$ - because without it, they won't be able to afford food for the animals, or the pay for the few people that work for them, or electricity/gas/water/public liability insurance/license fees/business fees and registration etc. Theres rarely anything left for major improvements. This does not mean that the animals are neglected.

Probably the most important things to look for are:

is the animal well fed and looks healthy? (ignore shedding for the time being)
does it have access to fresh clean water?
does it have access to shelter?
is it obviously sick or injured?
is there a buildup of faecal matter?

As I said, I'm not judging this fauna park one way ot the other. Nor am I having a go at Misky. Just putting forward some ideas to think about.



Hix

 

[foxysnake]

Me personally, I've been to some wildlife parks (some time and again), and some seem to stick out a mile better in the category of cleaner/stress-free for the animals. When it comes down to it, everybodies personal opinion differ in regard to something like that. 1 of the supposedly better parks I've been to was worse than that, with large amounts of old poo in snake enclosures, monitor/lizards pits rather small for the amount of animals in there and with no shade other a small sliver next to the fence during the hottest part of the day(-which I know for a fact - I was there for 5 hours with the kids). I have talked to keepers that worked there, and they just shrugged and said they don't have as much time as they'd like to keep things spotless, yet 10 mins later they were leaning agianst a fence talking and having s moke for 15 minutes, shortly after lunch. However if people ask me about the park I don't tell them the negative stuff, because as someone mentioned if these places don't get the money the animals suffer. As for these places are meant to be run up to certain standards etc. that's a crock, if that was the case alot of these places - and some petshops would be closed down for certain, and a lot of people would straight up lose their wildlife licenses for keeping their animals in substandard conditions. - What I mean is, - look at the food industry for example, when its inspection time, things are super clean, employees are on their best behaviour etc and everythings passed. Yet sometimes years down the track, a surprise inspection has busted and closed the place down for dirtiness or selling dead dog as food or something.

 

[africancichlidau]

is there a buildup of faecal matter?

That's a load of poo Hixy

 

[Hickson]

You should know Afro - you're full of it!!!!! :lol:



Hix

 

[africancichlidau]

Nice one Hixy, I'll pay that one

 

[misky]

Okay I will try and clear a few things up....

as Hix said the crocodile pool was discribed as small not shallow. The water was dirty in the pool (as would be expected) so I am not sure how deep it was. I couldn't tell you the dimensions of the pool but my main concern was the size of the fence around it in some places.

there was no shrubs etc. in the monitor enclosure. There was some flat rocks and branches but nothing that provided enough shade to cover the animal in question. The shade that was in the enclosure was from a tree about 2 meters outside the enclosure. This was why I said that I believed that it may disappear during the day (as the sun moved).

The reason I did not make any statements about the other animals is because I headed to the reptiles when I first got there and only got to see one of the avieries before I recieved an important phone call and had to leave therefore I didn't think I was fair to comment on something I hadn't seen. I will say that the one avery that I saw was in good condition.

All of the animals i saw DID have water although most wasn't clean.

NONE of the animals I saw appeared to be injured.

a small percentage of the animals I saw were thin but the majority appeared to be well fed and in good health. But that being said I am new to reptiles and don't claim to know all there is to know about the different species and admit that that this also may not be a problem as it is possible that this is the way these particullar species are supposed to look. I did not mention these animals in the original post as I did not want to identify the species to avoid this place being recognised.

Again I will say this post was not to bad mouth this particullar place, as hix said the public can get a wrong impression if they are misinformed and make wrong assumptions and this is why I posted the topic. I do not like to base my opinions on any topic on nothing more than assumptions but would rather learn facts. I openly admit that I did make some assumptions that some things were not to good but have happily taken in the knowledge of other and learned that I had made the wrong assumption as was my intention, to learn the facts.

Again i am sorry if anyone thought that my intention was anything other than learning and concern. If my intention had have been to bad mouth this park I would have named them and made a statement that it was unexceptable. Instead I asked a question so that I could learn from the experience and learn where what is exceptable and what isn't.

 

[reptililian]

Where are all those people who were having a whinge about the price of a snake they either cannot afford to own or do not even want to own?

Here is an issue that SHOULD be of concern to the reptile community, being what are acceptable conditions for reptiles, especially those on public display?

Or do you only like to complain about things that are outside of your knowledge base, being standard prices for yearling gtps?

Misky has raised an issue she would like to have some INTELLIGENT, MATURE, MEANINGFUL and INSIGHTFUL discussion on, and would like to learn a little more about from people who know more than her. So again I ask... WHERE ARE YOU NOW???

 

[RustyShadow]

misky its great u have a good appretiation for animals and are willing to learn more.
ive worked in several wildlife parks in the reptile sections and public education which is the main reason i think to have a park.
wildlife parks are allways short staffed, they primarily run on a head of each section and the rest is voluntry workers, helping there local park out as well as gaining valubale skills in the mean time.
ive worked at a park that would have tops 8 people a day through the gates during the week. there money solely comes in on school holidays. so maybe u or others who have a interest in reptiles or other animals can approach the parks in your areas and help out one day a week. they are allways happy to take your name for when a place is available, or fit you straight in. helping to improve parks that run on a small budget can be very rewarding. the more the park inproves the more punters come through the cates the more money can be spent for the animals