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Hix said:
All of a sudden this thread got really interesting (for me anyway).

Sdaji said:
...Bynoe's geckoes, which are hybrids, as the result of one hybridisation event between two species, then a back cross, and then no more hybridisation for over 100,000 years...The grasshoppers I've been working on for about 18 months are hybrids, from hybridisation which occurred around 100,000 years ago..

I'm curious how you know it was a hybridisation event that spawned these tow species, and not the usual evolution for selected adaptations. And what do you mean by "back cross" in this context - back cross to what? If they were two dfifferent species spawning a hybrid, how can that be a back cross?

:p

Hix

(Note: Re my first statement - I'm not suggesting the discussion of Maculosa is not interesting, just that Sdaji's statements I found really interesting.)

In the case of the geckoes, it's very easy (well, easy for me to understand now that other people have done the hard work :) ). To avoid typing for two or three pages, I'll give the 'nutshell sized' version. They are triploid, two sets of chromosomes coming from one species of Heteronotia, one from another. There has been no recombination between the 'odd' set of chromosomes and the other two. With this information, and knowing that the species is an obligate parthenogen, reproducing clonally, we can deduce that there must be an intermediate form, a parthenogenetic diploid hybrid. This hybrid backcrossed to one of the parental (sexual) species (obviously a diploid hybrid parthenogen with a 'normal' sexual male of one parental species), creating a triploid parthenogen. We can work out which species was male and female by looking at the mitochondria, which is clonally carried through from the original sexual female to the diploid parthenogen and then to the triploid back cross. We can work out which species the back cross male was, by looking at which species' DNA is represented twice in the triploid genome. We can work out how long ago this happened using molecular clocks in the mtDNA.

As for the grasshoppers, they're diploid, so it's even easier. A lot of the work was done a few decades ago and was cutting edge at the time. The parthenogenetic species (Warramamba virgo) is a hybrid between W. P169 and W. P196 (soon to be given 'proper' names). Phenotypically, P169 and P196 are extremely different, so much that at first, the guy who proved that virgo was a hybrid between the two wouldn't even accept that P169 was part of the phylogenetic group at all. It was discovered that virgo was a parthenogen when someone was out collecting morabine grasshoppers and noticed that all of this species was female. The grasshoppers (virgo) look just like W. P196, so it was assumed it was just a parthenogenetic form, back then they couldn't do fancy genotyping, just crude karyotyping. Don't ask me how, but another researcher came up with the hypothesis that virgo was a hybrid between P169 and P196, Michael White thought that was absurd, as he didn't even think P169 was remotely related to either. To attempt to disprove his critic, Michael White kept P169 and P196 together, to show that hybrids couldn't be produced, but he ended up proving his critic right, as he did produce hybrids and they were parthenogens! More recently, more advanced genetic testing (which I've had the privelage of watching the process of and then sharing the excitement of the fresh results) have confirmed the hybrid findings. Again, by looking at the mtDNA, we can determine which of the sexual species supplied sperm and which supplied eggs. The recent testing has also shown that there are many, many more clones than were initially thought, and also that these clones arrose from different populations which were genetically and phenotypically quite distinct (the sexual species/populations are still around and we can still go and collect them for comparisons). Again, 'molecular clocks' in the mtDNA are used to estimate how long ago the hybridisation events occurred.

Does that answer your questions? I can ramble on a bit more if it doesn't :) Parthenogens are lots of fun :)
 
Sdaji said:
Does that answer your questions?
Partially.

The statements make some sort of sense, but I can't mentally validate (or fully comprehend) them. Probably because it's 1:30 in the AM.

Will read it all again tomorrow, it should sink in then.

Thanks!

:p

Hix
 
in the last post from indicus
the one in the top picture definitely has yellow flanks
and less pattern. so it must be a blonde yeh?
 
My humble opinion. Just remember what you bought the snake as. A blonde Mac. If it was called a blond stimi would it make a difference. If it was called a blonde stimi/mac intergrade/hybrid would it have made a difference. Im assuming the snake was bought because it looks nice, reputed to be a good behaved snake, and can produce viable offspring. In the end as long as its sold as what it is, does it matter what it is? Are less people going to buy these snakes now due to hybridisation that could have occurred many thousands of years ago? I know i still really like them.

Adam
Again, think what you will, this is my opinion.
 
Indicus, I love the snakes I bought and really don't care if they are Macs/Stimsons or a bit of both. Having said that I think they are pure Maculosa.
As I said earlier the waters are very muddy, the Blond I bought from Bob has no yellow on it's flanks so doesn't display the obvious Blond characteristics.
To answer AdamR's question, no it makes no difference whatsoever. I have no issues with hybrids/crosses/intergrades.
 
Hi All,
This is how the Blonde got it's name.
In 1984 I received a book from an american friend call the Keeper and the Kept by Carl Kauffeld 1969. In this book it's describes the authors seach for the trans peco rat snake which comes in two colour phases normal and Blonde.
My friend and I were at Port Douglas, Nth QLD. We had found 9 or 10 mac's and out of these, there were two that were much lighter with a purple brown zig- zag from the neck down. My friend instantly said "Hey they are Blonde phase just like the the subocularis in Kauffeld's book." So my friend Adrian C.... christend them Blonde's not Bob.
A couple of years later Bobwas given a pair of these snakes and I told him the story.
Just because you spread the news doesn't mean you make it Bob.!
So the original Blonde's came from Port Douglas not Cook Town as stated by others. Although they are found in Cook Town (One in Twelve if you're lucky). they are few and far between. Helenvale has some nice mac's. Some of the nicest Blonde's come from a place called Silver Valley.
Cheers
 
SSHHH, I was trying to keep Silver Valley secret :lol:
I have only seen a few at Port Douglas myself with indicus and they were quite nice. I have though seen lots of them at HelensVale and although they had yellow flecks on their sides they weren't as good as what I had seen in Cook Town or Port Douglas.
 
this is getting even more interesting, i must say the first pic tremain posted looks like one of bobs blondes, so just maybe a blonde is just a blonde no matter who bred them or where they came from,

bwana you have really made some very interesting points, i must say your answers seem more believable then a few others i've heard,

and for the record just in case your missed it, i have a pair of tremains blondes and i wouldn't swap them for any other blondes going around, but thats my opinion, and i also have a pair of so called blondes from somebody else and if their true blondes i'll be very surprised,

i also bought a pair of maccies from peter krasse? about 4 years ago and a friend still has the female and in peters own words he wasn't certain they were blondes as he was lead to believe, he sold them to me as light or caramel coloured maccies, not blondes, but in saying that, they still turned out to be very nice coloured maccies, just not as blonde as tremains or bobs, but that doesn't mean they aren't blondes,

cheers,
steve.........
 
Yes as you say it's very interesting. I don't doubt Tremains Blonds one bit and I have to assume Bobs are 'true' as well but outside of the main lines the waters as I said are pretty muddy with all sorts of animals being called Blond.
 
here is one of my pairs of so called blondes, won't say where it came from, just that they are well known,
is this a blonde or just a normal maccie?
male first,
female second........
 
im not sure if this is what you mean by 'muddy' boa
but i have replied to ads advertising blonde macs for sale in the past
only to get photos of animals much darker than my standard maccies.
breeders definitely have very different opinions on what is a blonde.
 
Yes that is exactly what I mean, a snake is slightly lighter and it becomes a Blond or the breeder was told by someones friend that the snakes they have are Blonds.

daveyg1 said:
im not sure if this is what you mean by 'muddy' boa
but i have replied to ads advertising blonde macs for sale in the past
only to get photos of animals much darker than my standard maccies.
breeders definitely have very different opinions on what is a blonde.
 
hi dav ,
they were about 14 months old when the pic was taken,

cheers,
steve.............
 
Where's Bob???
As usuial, in for the bite and gone again.
I must admit i was a little upset when i returned home to read this thread.
Bob who pushed your button?, your've only seen a few pic's of a few of our animals;
and dont know what or how many we breed.......
I find it interesting your interpretation of what a blonde childrens is; a subject i happen to have an interest in.
Let me be the first to tell you that alot of Mac's in the North have yellow sides and or sparse pattern.
This is not restricted trait to cooktown form animals.....I'm sure if you'd spent more time up here,
rather then a few trips; you'd agree the variation and similarity is quite remarkable regardless where you look.
Bob theres no doubt you breed some very stunning Mac's; however to say their 'blondes' over others is
a joke!!! especially going on what you describe as a blonde......
In my oppion until further studies prove otherwise; any Mac derived from the tablelands and further north that have a considerable light colouration can be called a Blonde, regardless of size.....after all it's just a colour.
 
well said tremain, you know my feelings on your blondes and i'm guessing there are lots of other people that own them feel the same as me, i wonder if the lack of sales has anything to do with comments that have been made about your top blondes, i know who i'll be calling when i want a second pair,

cheers,
steve..........
 
I wouldn't be to worried about Bobs comments as the way I read it he was saying they were stunning but just different looking than the Cook Town morphs. You could argue that he promoted them.
 
Boa,

The only reason I would have for the lack of the yellow flanks is that I introduced a few new bloodlines a few years back. These may be genectly different to my major lines and may not throw the yellow flanks. As I have not raised any myself, I have no idea how they would turn out.

Indicus, I DO NOT run after my posts. I simply have a job that takes me away from home on a frequent basis and do not live at the PC screen 24/7. As for my comments re your lines. Yes, you were correct, they were aimed at your intergrade line that is always been shown on this site. Boas pic to me appears to be from that line . As for the other pics you posted, I have no doubt whatsoever they are macs of high quality. As Dave pointed out I did promote your line, but simply pointed out they were not blonds and should be namesd something different..

As for the comments of my knowledge of macs localities in northern Qld, I seem to remember telling you exactly were your intergrades were collected from, which you confirmed to me as being correct. I have spend a huge amount of time in these areas in my younger days.
 
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