Reptiles in Petshops!!! (poll)

[Pythoninfinite]

The sale of reptiles via inexperienced (but dishonest and greedy) pet shops in WA has been a bloody disaster. The amount of misinformation put out by a few dealers to increase sales causes all sorts of problems with novice keepers especially. Those in it for the money will always tell new keepers that they NEED UV for snakes etc, so they can sell a $400 animal with $1200 worth of useless stuff. Don't tell me it doesn't happen... Any regulation will only be as good as the people supervising it, in WA CALM wildlife officers are not permitted to keep animals of their own, most are not enthusiasts, and have only the most basic knowledge of reptile requirements and often limited resources. Poorly kept animals and poor husbandry are easily identified and dealt with, but the spreading of misinformation is a continuing problem and often leads novice keepers a long way down the wrong path.

The dealers with limited knowledge often promote themselves as gods gift to reptile keepers, especially if they have a big financial resource behind them and can make up for lack of knowledge with a glossy, glitzy shopfront. Novices and impulse buyers are easily overwhelmed when confronted with lots of animals and shelves overloaded with useless stuff.
I was myself a reptile dealer in WA for 2 1/2 years, worked from home and have been involved with reptiles in that state for over 40 years, and have been very disappointed by the way CALM has managed this.

That is not to say that there aren't ethical dealers out there though - those with experienced staff who have the welfare of their animals and clients at heart - and if it happens in NSW that shops can sell herps, these will be the ones already specialising in reptile gear and advice. Beware of newcomers with their eyes solely on the dollars.

The problems I've outlined are probably only relatively short-term though - the bad guys will eventually wash out of the system. I'm sure that's the case in SA and elsewhere where reptile retailing has been going for a while. It has already happened in Perth, one so-called "leading" dealer has closed his doors for financial reasons (but has risen with a new identity...) Those with the knowledge and an ethical approach will stay around, but they have to spend a lot of time rectifying the problems caused by others.

One of the biggest problems facing dealers is the outright cost of setting up a shop - rent, staff, stock, ongoing expenses for electricity, food etc - can be enormous, so the pressure to sell all sorts of stuff to novice buyers is huge, so if you can tweak your sales with a bit of B/S why not?

JM2C, from one of my (many) soapboxes...

Jamie.

 

[AGAMIDAE]

Never been a big fan of reptiles in Petshops, its only created a Ridiculous price jump and alot of un-necessary deaths in reptile because of the lack of knowlelge from the pet shop and new owner that got caught up in the fad!! How ever i would agree on specialist reptile shops that deal with just reptiles and are run by people that have a genuine interests in the hobby

 

[rodentrancher]

I think reptile specialist shops only. Not the run of the mill pet shops.

 

[MURRAY]

In Darwin you can sell reptiles in pet shops. The big problem up here is not alot of staff in these shops know what they are talking about. One of the pet shops I go to has very young staff working there. 9 times out of 10 when you ask a question about a reptile you can't get an answer. This can be very frustrating at times and doesn't help the reputation of that shop. There are a few shops that only deal in reptiles, such as Top End Reptiles, who give excellent advice and after sale care.

 

[Mangles]

Specialist Reptile Shops only. Some of the people working in pet stores selling Herps in Brisbane have no idea.

 

[Hickson]

Those in it for the money will always tell new keepers that they NEED UV for snakes etc, so they can sell a $400 animal with $1200 worth of useless stuff. Don't tell me it doesn't happen... .

In a petshop in Sydney a couple of weeks back, a friend of mine wanted to buy a heatmat - they refused to sell her one unless she bought a thermostat as well. They told her it was illegal to have a heatmat without a thermostat.

You listening, TrueBlue?



Hix

 

[munkee]

I haven't voted for this as I haven't seen both sides of the story myself. I have been lucky in the fact that my nearest pet shop had an owner that kept reptiles for years and he specifically employed a young bloke who had been keeping and breeding reptiles since the age of about ten. So I have had no horror stories and a lot of good advice from them.

The major advantage I see in petshops is the increased coverage and community awareness of reptiles.

The disadvantage will be some petshops will be dodgy and the prices of petstores have to higher than breeders due to them needing to make a profit from it (we don't need to make money from the sale of the animals).

These points I'm sure will have been said before elsewhere though.

 

[NoOne]

Tell any petshop owner they don't know anything about reptiles and they would probably go off at you.
Fact is it can not be heavily regulated by NPWS or any other animal welfare group, this does not happen now, how many petshops do you see that can't even keep birds properly?
There is no way in hell that petshops in NSW could do any better than any other state, reptiles will die, people will be ripped off, that will be more common than finding a good petshop.
Reptile shops....maybe but they would have to be a very limited number so they could be watched, but as if NPWS is going to have the time or money to bother doing that regularly.
It can't be done properly, i think VIC and most other states are good enough evidence to prove that it can't. I think the way petshops are at the moment is even better proof that reptiles can't be kept in most petshops.

 

[jordo]

whats your definition of a petshop??

both aquariums and 'petshops'

The major advantage I see in petshops is the increased coverage and community awareness of reptiles.

Definately, I think thats the main reason for me that they are good.

A lot of people have said reptile specialist shops or aquariums only, but a big problem would be deciding who is eligable to trade herps, with such a large reptile community in Aus all petshops will probably want a piece of the action, I've also seen aquariums that are just not up to scratch so thats why frequent random checks would be important.

I've been a firm believer that every species should be licenced since I can remember it would stop the impulse buying a bit, reduce poaching etc.
Also i don't think the age of employees has much to do with it (I worked in a petshop @ 15 years old having kept reptiles for about 7years), you can't really stop petshops employing younger people.

Ericreptiles - I agree, don't know about you guys but we just send money and get licence, its shocking

Sorry if that was a bit all over the place i'm just writing what comes to mind.

 

[crackers]

yes it should be alowed
at least there are regulations in a pet store regarding quality of care, cleanliness etc that most stores would have to abide by.
bet there are plenty of owners out there that are not providing the care they should. if an owner of a reptile has a sick, under fed reptile etc who's going to know and how many have died as a result?

 

[MoreliaMatt]

I vote NO, your normal average petshop shouldnt be able to sell reptiles... they arent like fish, cats, dogs etc... which on a whole take pretty much the same care no matter what breed they are....
reptiles are different, each species and subspecies need most times entirely different care, meaning their lighting, heating, feeding, handling, just to name a few!

i dont think your average 15 year old has the knowledge to 1, look after these animals in the store and 2, give the prospective buyer adequte (sp) information and advice on the reptiles specific needs, care and feeding advice! what average person that hasnt had reptiles of their own (face it most petshop people wouldnt have) would know what temps to keep, the temp gradient in the enclosure, lighting (be it heat, uv, light) every animal needs different settings! let alone the feeding patterns, what to feed it, when to feed it......

i personally think that your regular petshops should not be allowed to deal in reptiles and amphibians, and should just stick to selling dogs, cats, fish and birds.....

in adelaide we have a wide variety of "reptile shops" which are all (as far as i can see) very well run, by people who know their stuff! and genuinely care for the wellbeing and proper care of the animals they sell, not only when they are in store, but also after sale!

the stores in adelaide that i refer to as being very good are (in no particular order) -
The Gully Reptile Centa, Modbury - Visit Frequently
Scales & Tails, Prospect - Visit Occasionally (Purchased My EWD's From Them)
Reptile City, Christies Beach - Have Refered Friends Down South To Go There And Have Received Very Positive Feedback
and of course URS - Who I Havent Dealt With But Know Many People On Here Have


Sorry for the long post, but i couldnt have made it shorter without missing some of the points that i feel strongly about!

Matt

 

[jordo]

It really irrites me that reptiles are treated so differently to other animals, if a petshop had puppies in poor condition they would be in deep trouble but no one cares about something with scales so they get away with it :x

 

[timmy_crabb]

i'm all for reptiles in pet stores. only small and easily cared for ones. there must be staff at all times that know alot more than the internet enabled reptile owner. saying you can learn from a book or care sheet but it isnt enough is dumb. im sure we all got qualifications before we got our first reptile, RIGHT! see, see the sarcasm. for easy to care for reptiles (childrens pythons or bearded dragons for example) you can learn all you need to know from a very small book or 5 sheets of A4 paper. the rest you either study for or take it to a vet.

 

[Sdaji]

If it wasn't for the enemies it would earn me, I'd love to post some of the photographs I've taken of sick, dying and in some cases heavily decayed reptiles in 'reptile specialist shops' (they're certainly no better on average than generalist pet shops). I've seen and photographed lizards which have been sitting around for (I estimate) up to about two weeks, still in their enclosures on display, with sick and emaciated cage mates crawling over their bodies. It's quite disturbing to see a lizard which has died, been half eaten, gone rotten, shrivelled and dried up, dried skin hanging off the bones, which its cage mates are still in there. I've seen this happen in display enclosures, I'd hate to see what's out the back of some of these places!

Because of the low quality and high prices, it is the inexperienced who are most likely to buy from pet shops. The inexperienced are the people who most need to talk to people who know what they're doing in order to get advice. They're also the last people who should be trying to nurse sick animals back to health.

A well known and used tactic in pet shops (whether it's dogs, cats, birds, fish, reptiles etc), is to deliberately neglect the animals. It makes sympathetic people want to buy the animals to 'give them a better home', 'save their life' etc. Unfortunately, this only makes the problem worse as the pet shop will replace the animal and neglect that one too.

Incidentally, dogs, cats and birds shouldn't be sold in pet shops either.

Is someone able to dig up the statistics on the proportion of animals sold in pet shops which die within the first few weeks after purchase? (Likely the figures for reptiles will be unavailable, but it should be there for cats, dogs and birds).

 

[cris]

Im must say i have never got any detailed husbandry information from any breeder, no caresheets or anything, just a bit of a general chat usually. When I bought from a reptile/petshop they gave me a very good detailed caresheet that had far more info than anyone would bother telling you.

Many petshops do have a habit of trying to sell you lots of stuff you dont need, while others just offer good advice. When i was in Adelaide i was going to by a replacement thermostat for the one i had that stuck on, i went to scales and tails and asked him what was best, his reply was(not exact words) - "I dont want to rip ppl off so i dont sell them because they arnt needed". He then explained in detail how to properly provide a better thermal gradient without a thermostat.

they arent like fish, cats, dogs etc... which on a whole take pretty much the same care no matter what breed they are....

Yeah i know what you mean take fish for example you just stick them in tap water and they will all be fine, you dont need to worry about acidity, salt levels, hardness, filtration, airation, water temp, feeding(many fish only normally eat live food), lighting, shelter, fish temperment and community behaviour none of these things matter at all good for one fish, good for all i say :roll: (oh yeah thats sarchasm :lol: )

 

[waruikazi]

I'll be putting my flame suit on as soon as i finish this post.

I think there is absolutely no problems with pet shops selling reptiles at all. IMO reptiles are some of the easiest pets to keep (yes there are exceptions). It is much easier to care for a reptile than it is a bird, dog or cat, to put that into perspective i have never had to take any of my reptiles to a vet (except when i got them probed) where as my dog and cats have been numerous times for ilness etc.

Most people who buy reptiles from a pet shop get one of the following, childrens python, carpet python, bredli, turtle, bearded dragon or blue tongue. This is because they are relatively cheap compared to other species and easy to care for. When people start thinking about black heads or womas they are gonna do lots of research to find out how to care for them etc because of the hefty price tag, people who are buying the difficult animals to care for generally do not rush out and spend $2000 with out doing lots of research.

The fact that owners need to have a permit and have to pay for that permit to keep reptiles in southern states remedies most of the problems that could be encountered from purchasing a reptile from an inexperienced person. Most people would be so excited about getting a reptile when they have applied for a permit that they would have their nose in books or on the internet most spare hours they have. In the NT you do not have to have a permit to buy reptiles, in fact you have to buy your reptiles before getting you permit and you do not have to pay for it, just fill in an application.

Any way i'll finish by saying what i have said at the beginning, reptiles are amongst the easiest pets to keep especially most snakes. I do not see why a pet shop should be alloud to sell dogs, birds etc and not reptiles.

IMO of course

 

[fishbot]

they arent like fish

No they are not, fish require far more complex husbandry tecniques =p

IMO retail sales of pets is the lesser of 2 evils. Under the current NSW system it is cheaper and easier to buy a Boa than a BHP, this should not be the case.

I am ignorant of states other than NSW but i do know that NSW tafe currently offers a animal husbandry course specifically designed for pet shops.

PIAA (Pet Industry Association of Australia) is working its tail off to improve pet shops, they were the ones who started the tafe course.

Yes i am sure there are bad reptile stores, but does that mean there are zero good ones? Ive been to some shonkey doctors, should we ban doctors?

I work in a retail aquarium. I have a RK licience, my boss and owner has a RK licience, the majority of staff have RK licience, so why cant i sell a damn turtle!!!?

 

[JEZ]

NO to normal "pet" shops selling reptiles!! but YES!! to reptile specialists stores. If they are set up correctly of course.

I think what I've seen in SA is great so far.

The Reptile specialists stores are awesome and the guys no what they're on about too!!! Which helps ppl make informed decisions about owning/keeping reptiles.

Shout out to the guys at Reptile City in Adelaide...nice work!!!

 

[cris]

I agree with what your saying sdaji except for how you dont mention that not all shops are like this? or do you think they are?
There are certainly alot like this, IMO we should stop such shops operating with any animals, not stop good ppls shops from having reptiles.
In case you didnt work it out i dont think its ok to neglect animals for profit and I dont think the class of animal is relevant at all.

 

[Magpie]

I'm not sure.
I mean, at least pet shops have an onus to let people come in and see how their animals are being kept.
Private breeders don't, and we know through some of the posts that have been on this site over the years that there is no shortage of private breeders selling animals in just as poor condition.
Sure, some pet shops are shocking, but to say that they should not be able to sell animals beacuse of that is a bit like saying that private keepers should not be able to because some of them are shocking too.