Egg thief

[Retic]

PP, I agree on many of those points especially the legal side of it which has been done to death. It isn't illegal in QLD to cross most morelia so that's out of the way.
I'm not entirely sure what this means "no sane person could ever believe that a cross bred reptile could only be visually ugly" Are you saying they AREN'T ugly because they are cross breeds or are you saying it is ugly under the skin ? I can't quite follow that one. I do agree about all the rolling of the eyes though, it gets a little tiring.
I am not sure why exactly something such as cross breeding has to be good for the hobby and exactly how they are a potential threat to the natural wildlife ? They aren't ever likely to see a wild cousin except in the event of an escape but the same potential is there if a pure non local snake escapes.
It does need to be talked about but it is important not to talk down to those who have a different view.
Different people have differing views and no one side should automatically think they are right, I have always been keen on hybrids and have seen some absolute crackers over the years, I haven't suddenly changed my viewpoint on this because some see it as unpopular.
Whether it is good for the hobby or not is impossible to say, people use the USA as an example of not what to do but pure animals are widely available from any number of sources and no doubt always will be.

 

[TrueBlue]

Boa, i think you will find that the head office in mogal, DONOT allow hybrids to be knowingly breed in qld.
There are a few NPWS offices around qld that to me seem pretty clueless and dont seem to have any idea what they are on about half the time.
Take the offices that make people use tongs for snake catching for example, i can remember informing my local office a number of years back about this absurd pratice and they were going to do their darnest to stop it.

 

[buck]

The funniest thing i think is that people are getting all up ina rms about captively crossed offspring, yet intergrades (same thing different smell) are deemed as acceptable.
.

Aaaarrgghhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Why would a Coastal x Diamond be the same as an Intergrade(Port Macquarie Python)? An Intergrade is it's own species.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Boa
When I say that no sane person could ever believe that a cross bred reptile could only be visually ugly, I simply mean that it is clear that there are great looking crossbreds around and to claim otherwise is insane.

As far as side being automatically being right, they will be if they deal in facts which there are many.
Here is just a couple for one side.
(1)
Crossbreeding is causing species identification issues to a point where many keepers do not know for sure what they have bought.
(2)
All wildlife departments do not support in principal the idea of reptile keeper purposely creating cross breeds. Instead it is the case that they recognize that their hands are often legally tied because of antiquated legislation in some states which simply protect those individuals participating in those actions.

Please post up a few facts from the other side.

 

[Nome]

The funniest thing i think is that people are getting all up ina rms about captively crossed offspring, yet intergrades (same thing different smell) are deemed as acceptable.

If there were major genetic problems, then the animals would not produce viable offspring.

Remember that all of our sub speciation is relative, and the classes and subclasses are not stagnant.

Intergrades are not the same thing :roll:

This is just another reason why crossbreeding is bad for the hobby, so many people flogging off their diamond x coastals as intergrades. That's why people like you Junglist are getting very mixed up.

All the supporters of hybrids, you can't say for a second that it hasn't damaged our hobby. There are so many people out there that have posted up pictures of their diamond or childreni, that is clearly not a pure snake even though they bought it as one. How is that right?

How can it be good or even okay for our hobby when so many snakes that are sold as pure are not pure, these people that don't know any different, buy them, breed them, resell them as pure.

You can say it' fine if people be honest, but fact is they aren't honest, or they are ignorant and don't know the difference.

How is that good for our hobby?

 

[buck]

Intergrades are not the same thing :roll:

This is just another reason why crossbreeding is bad for the hobby, so many people flogging off their diamond x coastals as intergrades. That's why people like you Junglist are getting very mixed up.

All the supporters of hybrids, you can't say for a second that it hasn't damaged our hobby. There are so many people out there that have posted up pictures of their diamond or childreni, that is clearly not a pure snake even though they bought it as one. How is that right?

How can it be good or even okay for our hobby when so many snakes that are sold as pure are not pure, these people that don't know any different, buy them, breed them, resell them as pure.

You can say it' fine if people be honest, but fact is they aren't honest, or they are ignorant and don't know the difference.

How is that good for our hobby?

Well said Nomes

 

[junglist*]

Geez, im definately not confused, you've got me mistaken for someone else.

If you dont understand genetics, i suggest shutting up.

There is no such thing as pure, to claim so is ridiculously naieve. Its about as smart as white supremacists, but thats a wholly different issue.

An intergrade is the result of the natural cross breeding of two related specimen. If the same specimens were to do so in captivity, can you, oh well informed one tell me what difference the genetics of the captively crossed offspring will have to the wild crossbreed?

 

[junglepython2]

Intergrade implies a a local mixing of subspecies where they happen to meet, so a gradient of characteristics should be seen from one sub-species to the other, this occurs over generations.

A simple cross between two subspecies is not an intergrade and shouldn't be sold as one.

 

[Nome]

Intergrades are not a diamond cross coastal, for example, Port Macquarie Intergrades are a locality of carpet that are only found in certain parts of NSW. Intergrades breed with intergrades in the wild.

Do some research Junglist before you make yourself sound like a fool. Can you honestly sit here and say that crossing a coastal and diamond in captivity will make an intergrade, a naturally occuring locality carpet that has existed in it's natural habitat for ages as an intergrade. One theory is that the two subspecies overlapped hundreds of years ago and over generations produced intergrades, it's still far from something you can make in captivity.

 

[Retic]

Thanks Dave, I did think that was what you meant, as you say it is madness to suggest a snake is ugly based purely on the fact that it is a cross breed, thanks for clearing that up as you say there are some great looking hybrids out there.

Boa
When I say that no sane person could ever believe that a cross bred reptile could only be visually ugly, I simply mean that it is clear that there are great looking crossbreds around and to claim otherwise is insane.

 

[steve6610]

i agree with a lot you say dave, and just for the record, i do respect what you say for the reason you don't personally attack others,

what i want to ask you is this, you asked what hybrids do for the hobby, i'll ask you this, what do albinos , hypos, double striped , single striped, super stripes and so on do for the hobby,
in my opinion i believe that cross breeding will do the same as all the things i listed above, it gives keepers more different patterns, colours and so on to have in their collections,
how will anybody know if they have bought a darwin het for albino, they don't unless the breeder has been honest, how many possible het darwin males have been frozen to keep the price up, how does that help the snakes, getting frozen just because you might carry the albino gen, it might be a bit different but it's along the same lines, apart from the money and the thrill of owning an albino, what other benifit does breeding them do, what will an albino do if it gets put back into the wild, it will be dead very quickly, and the same goes for all the other morphs that are being bred, they will stand out like something hanging on a dog,
for those who keep going on about it being illegal to breed hybrids, why do you accept it's ok to breed for morphs, i can scan and send anybody the qld rules that plainly states it's illegal to breed morphs, and also that it's illegal to keep your snakes to make a profit, but i've been over these points and they get swept under the carpet as always,

this reply is for dave as he asked why i want to breed hybrids and why it's ok, so to everybody else, please keep the personal attacks to yourselves,

 

[Tsidasa]

What a shame, Bundy has got hardly any information as to what they should do with their snakes.

 

[Deano]

What a shame, Bundy has got hardly any information as to what they should do with their snakes.

I agree Tsidasa..............

 

[Retic]

Not at all, seperate them and let the female incubate the eggs or put them in an incubator. There really isn't too much that can be said on the topic really. He said he didn't want to breed crosses but left them together again, I'm not sure what else to say.

What a shame, Bundy has got hardly any information as to what they should do with their snakes.

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Steve6610
If the object of this discussion (even though this thread is off track ) is to logically debate whether or not cross breeding is good for our hobby, or not, then I think it is crucial to set out known facts first and then to discuss the relevance of those facts in order to come to some sort of clear conclusion.
Rather than answer a question with a question perhaps it might be helpful to just try and answer it.This way the answer can be evaluated and who knows, may sway opinion.
Do not automatically assume that albinos, weird colored morphs etc won’t survive in the wild as they clearly do and they can only be described as being naturally occurring. It is more of the case that they are only more vulnerable to a degree than the rest of the population if they stand out more to predators.
I am not quite sure of your reference or the relevance to this, in relation to any support for crossbreeding though?

You ask the question, why is it acceptable to breed morphs?
I answer this by saying that the definition of a morph is subject to different interpretation.
Generally speaking though, a morph is considered a naturally occurring species that shows different colour traits within a population either by size, colour, scalation difference within a given species. This is often influenced by geographical variances or natural barriers limiting gene flow between areas and other factors etc. Preserving or promoting those differences that these specimens display to please the masses who appreciate them for what they are, seems like a valid contribution to an element of reptile keeping that we all enjoy.
Crossing different species on the other hand to end up with (some times) beautiful unnatural occurring specimens (in terms of what would be likely found in the wild) does not equate to the same thing.
As far as people being honest or not, well that has nothing really to do with whether we should or should not be crossing breeding species. One thing that is becoming abundantly clear though is it is obviously going to be easier for the unscrupulous to get away with dishonesty the more tainted our captive reptiles become through cross breeding.

Cheers Dave

 

[Twiggz]

Well Bundy, i hope you managed to get some legitament help for your situation. I applaud those who took the time to actually help out. Being new to the forum i would expect that any queries i faced with my collection would be addressed by people who were generally interested in helping (many thanks to those who have helped me in the last few days), but come on...... it appears as though many people were just more interested in arguing the issue of hybrids......a complete waste of time for the genuine folk seeking advice.

Everyone is to their own opinion and thats fine, but in all seriousness why would you want to cross breed? With the exception of having a sole cross breed as a pet, i ask the question:

"Are Australia's native/natural occuring species not good enough for you to keep as they are?"

Should this be the case, then its my opinion that you dont deserve to keep them. Pure and simple.

Finally in response to the pic posted by Boa on one of the early pages and his statement "How could anyone not like the look of this snake?"

- Apart from calling it nothing more than a mongrel snake, the appearance and colouring alone looks more like something i've thrown up in the past.

But hey, to each their own.

 

[Retic]

Dave, I think we need to get past this question of whether it is good for the hobby to breed crosses. If I breed 2 coastals to get striped offspring is that good for the hobby ? Or breeding any trait in a snake ? These things aren't good for the hobby, don't get me wrong they aren't bad either. Animals are NOT being bred to reintroduce into the wild, they are being bred to sell to other people who appreciate the beauty of snakes, all snakes not just pure snakes.
It's not like I even have a vested interest in these animals but I do value the right of the individual.
There will always be pure snakes available from a great many breeders including myself.

 

[steve6610]

in my opinion i believe that cross breeding will do the same as all the things i listed above, it gives keepers more different patterns, colours and so on to have in their collections,

thats ok dave, thanks for giving me a straight answer, above is a quote from my first post, this is the reason why i like the idea of cross breeding, and you forget that all captive bred snakes will never be returned to the wild, and i want to know if they survive in the wild why aren't they seen all the time, ( albinos ),
the thing that really annoys me the most is that just because i like the idea of "designer" snakes that i don't care about pure snakes, thats bull, i also have more location pure and mixed location pure snakes then i do crossed breeds,

but dave you didn't comment on the fact that it's illegal to breed morphs as much as it is to breed hybrids,

and as for you twiggz saying we shouldn't have the right to own reptiles, thats a load of crap, i can bet my reptiles are better cared for then thousands of other reptiles around, as for your opinion on liking them or not, thats fine, but don't get up on your block and make a statement that we aren't fit to own them,

 

[PilbaraPythons]

Boa
I don’t believe you should ever go past that question as I think that this is the most important question of all.
Also the right of an individual should never be at the expensive of what a majority deem to be in the best interest of this hobby.

Steve6610
The reason that we don’t often see albinos is because they are rare. Not because they can not survive.

I am not yet ignorant enough to comment in depth about the legality on the breeding of morphs as I have never seen or read an act any where in Australia that makes the breeding of them illegal. Assuming that it is now illegal in Queensland, I would not care any how as the fact that an action is lawful or other wise has no bearing on my feelings towards crossbreeding.

Cheers Dave

 

[steve6610]

thats ok dave, i can send you a scan of it if you want, but you are right, it doesn't really have anything to do with you liking them or not, but it does have something to do with a lot of replys from other members that always end with, " and it's illegal in qld " ,

but i really have to disagree with this comment,

"Also the right of an individual should never be at the expensive of what a majority deem to be in the best interest of this hobby."

dave there was a poll on here on the old site and i'm sure if you searched you would find it, but from memery the vote for those who would own hybrids was over 70%, so i think you are wrong in saying that the majority don't want or like hybrids, the problem is to many get flamed by the same 20 or so people about hybrids that most shut up and say nothing, i can tell you that i've had plenty of emails and pms asking to buy my 2 cross breeds, and i've also had plenty of members on here tell me what they have, because they know i won't abuse them, i've also got a list of members who have asked me to breed my coastal and intergrade again so they can get a hatchling, so dave you are wrong in this case, weither it's good or bad will NEVER be answered,
if hybrids or crosses have a place in our hobby, i'm sorry but they have, like it or hate it, if in doubt, just start another pole and find out again.................