leading question...

[sammyboy]

i actually thought thiw was going to lead to the "so if they are the same whats wrong with interbreeding them" debate, so for arguments sake i polled they were different genus altogether,

alas it appears i was the 4th so as for the other 3 opinions i cant speak

 

[sammyboy]

What I don't get is how/why 3 people have voted that Diamonds and Coastals are in a different genus.

sorry - this is what my last post was a response too

 

[cris]

i actually thought thiw was going to lead to the "so if they are the same whats wrong with interbreeding them" debate, so for arguments sake i polled they were different genus altogether,

alas it appears i was the 4th so as for the other 3 opinions i cant speak

well IMO cross breeding morelia spilota sub species is no worse than breeding with differant localities anyway, either way it isnt a 'natural' animal.

This thread highlights the flaws of democracy, everyone gets a vote even if they dont have a clue what they are voting for.

 

[DanN]

All the carpets are the same genus and species, however they are considered subspecies of one another. e.g coastal, northern, diamond etc.
It has been mentioned that Bredli are a different species, whether this is true I do not know. The Green python is a different species altogether and IMO should be placed in a seperate genus.

 

[cris]

All the carpets are the same genus and species, however they are considered subspecies of one another. e.g coastal, northern, diamond etc.
It has been mentioned that Bredli are a different species, whether this is true I do not know. The Green python is a different species altogether and IMO should be placed in a seperate genus.

why?(not having a go just interested to learn)

 

[DanN]

About the GP?

I just think that they have been seperated for long enough and have such different morphological characteristics and behaviour that the GP would be more appropriate in another genus. The phylogeny can never be 100% but I think GP will have evolved from morelia but is now a distinct genus.

 

[Hickson]

I spoke to Donellan some months ago about the abstract, the reason the paper was never published is because it is part of a larger PhD study that is ongoing. There will be three or four papers published eventually, the first being a PhD thesis, the last being the one we want on the spilota complex. The reason it will be the last published is because it refers back to findings in the previous papers and thesis (so they have to be published first).

In a nutshell, they took samples from a large number of wild carpet pythons of all the different subspecies as well as bredli and imbricata and then analysed them using a variety of taxonomic tools (electrophoresis, microsatellites, chain sequences etc.).

The results were that bredli and imbricata were clearly and significantly distinguishable from the others to state they are separate species. However, there were no significant differences in the genetics of the different subspecies of spilota. There were no autopomorphies. I asked about genetic markers being more prevalent in some subspecies or populations, and I was told that all the amrkers were found in all the animals. Some were more prevalent in certain populations than others, especially towards the centre of the range, but none were exclusive and - most importantly - bore no resemblance whatsoever to phenotype. Looking at the genetics of an individual could not predict what the skin pattern would be.

Therefore, genetically there are no subspecies in Morelia spilota. The colour patterns we are familiar with and use to identify Coastals, Jungles, Darwins, Diamonds, MDs etc. are just simply locality populations.

At least, this is what one of the senior researchers on the team told me.



Hix

 

[cwarren72]

now we are on the right track I will explain the purpose of this thread...There has been an ongoing debat (for as long as I can remember) about two terms,,,, Intergrade and Cross-Breed....There are some people who will insist that if a Coastal and Diamond breed then by default they are cross-breeds and not intergrades....BUT now that there is proof to show that Diamonds and carpets are not only the same Genus but in fact genetically the same subspecies then they have to by default be Intergrades and NOT Crosses. And intergade by definition is stated as.....
Intergrade:
An animal which shows the mixed characteristics of two subspecies at the border of both their ranges.
Whereas a cross-breed or hybrid is as follows

Bilogically:The offspring of two different species, or of two different genera. Or where two non-bordering subspecies are mated.

Now considering the scientific results as mentioned by Hix There can be no such thing as a diamond/carpet cross they all have to be classed as Intergrades. The only question now is should there now be a seperate class for Intergrades as a species????? and if so should it be region specific to identify localities of the Intergrades.

 

[JasonL]

Ah, This has been my thinking all along, Go the clumper's!!!

 

[Retic]

Thank you Hix, very interesting indeed.

 

[Hickson]

And intergade by definition is stated as.....
Intergrade:
An animal which shows the mixed characteristics of two subspecies at the border of both their ranges.
Whereas a cross-breed or hybrid is as follows

Bilogically:The offspring of two different species, or of two different genera. Or where two non-bordering subspecies are mated.

Ummm.........where are these definitions stated?

Now considering the scientific results as mentioned by Hix There can be no such thing as a diamond/carpet cross they all have to be classed as Intergrades. The only question now is should there now be a seperate class for Intergrades as a species????? and if so should it be region specific to identify localities of the Intergrades.

Firstly: I reported what I was told. I didn't say that I accepted their findings.

Secondly: the word 'cross' is acceptable - a "diamond/carpet cross" means you have bred a diamond and a carpet together. I think what you meant to say was "...no such thing as a diamond/carpet hybrid...".

Thirdly: intergrades, by their very nature, are not species.



Hix

 

[Nome]

.
Now considering the scientific results as mentioned by Hix There can be no such thing as a diamond/carpet cross they all have to be classed as Intergrades.

Can you please explain more how you came to this conclusion? Especially considering your definition of intergrades earlier?

 

[cwarren72]

I have already explained....These definitions can be found all through the Net....You only need search....Now some of you may want to jump up and down and start with the same old rhetoric that there can't be such a thing as a diamond/Carpet intergrade but given things that have now been mentioned the evidence can't be ignored. Hix I find it interesting that when you first mentioned what you were told you never mentioned that you did not accept their findings but now that the purpose of this thread has been made evident you now try to make it sound like you disagree and yet when you posted the mentioned findings thus far you gave the impression that you were happy to go along with those findings. IMO anyway. As for the term Hybrid or Cross they have been used in the same context for ages so it is just easier to get rid of both of them rather then try to explain the difference. Also I am extremely curious by the statment that Intergrades by their very nature are not a species??? Then what are they if not a species??? do you mean seperate species?? Because they are not a coastal nor are they a diamond...They are indeed Intergrades???

 

[junglepython2]

Coastals and Diamonds are the same species, so an intergrade is also the same species. Diamonds and coastals are generally considered a separate subspecies which some are now disputing.
An intergrade is a mix of the two subspecies where they meet in the wild, and is different to a straight cross between a diamond and a carpet.

 

[Mr feegle]

lol lol this is great i love it

 

[cwarren72]

here we go again... How is an Intergrade different to a cross?? this is where people amaze me. You like to say something but not back it up with an explanation. Two neighbouring subspecies be they naturally bred or not they are still they same result and therefore the same ....Intergrade....I can't understand why it is that people can't just except the word Intergrade???

 

[Mr feegle]

imo
if you have a dimond from wollongong amd a coastal from brisbane = hybread as they in the wild wouldnt have a chance to bread
but a dimond and a coastal from port mac whould in theroy have a natural chace of breading
Then you would have a intergrade
I think it all comes down to the location of the snakes and the behaviour in the wild.
How you would regulate this, would be dependent on how much you trust the breader you are buying from.
As i said Just my Opinion

 

[junglepython2]

An Intergrade implies a local mixing of subspecies where they happen to meet, so a gradient of characteristics should be seen from one sub-species to the other, this occurs over generations. And as someone else pointed out intergrades breed with intergrades and begin to develop their own characteristics. It's not 50% coastal and 50% diamond.

 

[Lucas]

here we go again... How is an Intergrade different to a cross?? this is where people amaze me. You like to say something but not back it up with an explanation. Two neighbouring subspecies be they naturally bred or not they are still they same result and therefore the same ....Intergrade....I can't understand why it is that people can't just except the word Intergrade???

I've been thinking the exact same thing. A diamond and a Coastal Carpet meet one night. The diamond buys the carpet a drink and they eventually retire to a nice, soft leafy spot. The next morning the diamond wakes up and does the runner while the coastal is in the shower.

By the majority of the logic here an intergrade (Diamond/Coastal for this argument) is only a naturally occuring species, where as, if I were to take a diamond and a coastal and but them together I would have nothing but offspring that should be frozen (according to some members).

How does this add up?????

A diamond and a coastal together produce the exact same offspring whether they are in a wild state or captive state.

And before anyone comes up and says "but its locale specific" if its locale specific why isn't there a concern with putting eden diamonds with gosford diamonds or brissie carpets with cairns carpets?

Is it because they are the same species?

Aren't intergrades naturally occuring?

IMO they are the saame species or they wouldn't produce fertile offspring.

 

[cwarren72]

imo
if you have a dimond from wollongong amd a coastal from brisbane = hybread as they in the wild wouldnt have a chance to bread
but a dimond and a coastal from port mac whould in theroy have a natural chace of breading
Then you would have a intergrade
I think it all comes down to the location of the snakes and the behaviour in the wild.
How you would regulate this, would be dependent on how much you trust the breader you are buying from.
As i said Just my Opinion

mate you have sumed it up perfectly. But the only problem is that you would have to be able to correctly identify the locality of the carpet. But otherwise you hit the nail on the head

Also you are right Lucas with the regional zones for carpets...No one complains when they breed and are from different regions they just accept it so diamond/carpet are no different