I'm reaching for my flame suit.

[da_donkey]

What happens if i buy a Doberman pup, i want it to look the part so i clip its ears tie paddle pop sticks to them and wrap them with bandages( so they stand up) then dock its tail.

Is that cool?

Donk

 

[salebrosus]

Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
"Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."

just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people!

The world is full of stupid people who do stupid things.

By the way Simone, this is not an attack on you at all, I would just like to see if anyone can prove this "what if this happened...". Personally, I don't agree with the procedure of removing venom glands, but having not asked Ray why he does it, I don't feel I have the right to pass judgement.

There is nothing particularly fair or ethical in bagging someone - if you must comment, do so on the procedure, not the person.

Regards,
Trent

Ok Trent, why is it that every time someone posts pics of free handling elapids on this site does the argument come up people being irresponsible??????? I certainly remember pugsly posting shots of free handling elapids and then getting flamed for being irresponsible and how many people on this site thought he would cause somone to end up getting bitten by witnessing his shots. And for your argument about most people having enough common sense about not handling a venomous snake explain why so many people are being bitten by snakes in recent years. I'm not referring to keepers or rescuers but by knuckleheads that have got some weird and wonderful story of how a brown snake has chased them across their yard and somehow manged to jump up and bite them on the hand.

I certainly haven't bagged Ray Hoser out. I clearly said that i thought he was odd, but that people thought i was too. And yes, the procedure sucks. Just my opinion.

Simone.

 

[Nome]

This is a video of one of his shows....he is passing species of venomous snakes out left right and centre to children. He doesn't appear to say much more than 'these are tame snakes, but don't do this in the bush, don't try this at home'.

Besides all the other stuff about his procedure, how can anyone think this is okay? Watch it and judge for yourself. This is a production that appears to be done by himself, so it's not warped by anyone else.

http://media.theage.com.au/?categor...me=&t=1OR829&ie=1&player=wm7&rate=368&flash=1

 

[MrBredli]

I'm not a huge fan of him having 10-15 snakes shoved into 1 tub either. Should be one per pillow case (or similar) in my opinion. I can't understand how a guy with so much passion for reptiles can also be so cruel in so many ways.

 

[da_donkey]

Last time i gave my opinion on this subject :evil: i gave myself a 2 month ban from APS, im not getting into it again.

Cant handle the guy!!!

Donk

 

[moosenoose]

Originally posted by Johnbowemonie
"Apart from being cruel and taking away the animals god given right to be an elapid i really do think it would teach complacency among people handling them. Some people witnessing Ray's shows are not the sharpest tools in the shed, your bound to get some galoot try picking up a Tiger Snake cos he saw one being held like that at a shopping mall etc."

just a quick question about this statement, has anyone actually heard of someone being bitten by an elapid because they picked it up and handled it like they saw at Ray's shows? Most, if not all people have enough common sense to understand that a wild venomous snake will bite you. Not to mention, these "Galoots" probably wouldn't know the difference between a python and a dangerous elapid anyway, and so handling any snake in public would present a risk to said people!

The world is full of stupid people who do stupid things.

By the way Simone, this is not an attack on you at all, I would just like to see if anyone can prove this "what if this happened...". Personally, I don't agree with the procedure of removing venom glands, but having not asked Ray why he does it, I don't feel I have the right to pass judgement.

There is nothing particularly fair or ethical in bagging someone - if you must comment, do so on the procedure, not the person.

Regards,
Trent

Not terribly hard to prove at all I'm afraid Trent, as this article written only a month or so ago in the Herald Sun describes quite "ironically" what Raymond himself refers to as the Steve Irwin Phenomenon! :? After seeing the link from Nome I think Hoser should concentrate on his own backyard before worrying about anyone elses!

 

[Isis]

Da donkey. If you do that to a dog just for aesthetic purposes then you deserve to be shot. What a stupid thing to say. If your child was born with a big nose would that had no medical ramifications would you cut it off and tie it to paddle pop sticks to make it look more socilly acceptable even if it meant immence pain for the child. No you would be concidered cruel same as dogs whose tails get docked for purely image reasons.
Hoser is a cruel man who confuses children..... dont stick up for him and his horrible ways.

 

[da_donkey]

Hi Isis,

I would never do that to any animal, i was comparing this practise to what hoser does.

Most people on here know my views on the subject ( i doubt i would ever "stick up for him".

Donk

 

[elapid68]

I'll answer each seperately

Huh?
so the tigers/copperheads and eyelash vipers etc have had their venom glands removed? they DO have vens

No, they are still highly venomous animals. It was just a few animals in some outside pits that we were talking about. This is fully explaned by John Weigel in his post which can be found 4 prior to yours.

i was there recently and one of the reptile keepers milked a tiger, showed me the venom too, it was real.

As ARP is one of the biggest suppliers of venom for the production of antivenom, I'm not overly surprised the venom you saw was real.

also, i thought venemoid was the term for whole, un-mutilated vens.....?

Venomoid is the term used for a venom producing animal that has had its vemon glands removed by surgery.
An animal that is capable of producing and delivering its venom is simply a venomous animal.

 

[elapid68]

Last time i gave my opinion on this subject :evil: i gave myself a 2 month ban from APS, im not getting into it again.

Cant handle the guy!!!

Donk

This is one of the points I keep trying to get across. If you have a non emotional, logical, thought out opinion then post it. It's when people start abusing and name calling that they get themselves in trouble.
Take that newspaper article the other week. The responses started off well then it deteriorated into a "Hoser is a snake mutilator and he should die" argument. It got quite embarrassing to read. We have enough trouble getting the general public to accept our hobby and those type of comments don't help. It just shows the herp community to be a bunch of un-educated rednecks.

 

[raptor]

I've avoided commenting until now, but having read 5 pages without anyone seeming to notice two glaring similarities means I had to finally offer my opinion!
Ray Hoser has voids. ARP has voids. Correction, ARP HAD voids. Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Hoser hasn't performed the proceedure for years, yet all seemed to take note of the fact that neither has ARP. The bottom line is both had them, both created them, & neither has created any more for some period of time. So why is Hoser continually castigated for still having them? Would everyone feel better if all the said animals were promptly put down? Would it change anything? Ray would still be remembered & vilified as the "man who voided hots". He AND at least one other person, who seems to be immune from comment because he's a vet. I'm not convinced of Hoser's claims that the herps dont feel it. I'm far from convinced that a kitchen table is an appropriate place for surgery. But I'm also far from convinced that it has no long-term effect on the animal in any way, & therefore the fact that it was done in a different manner becomes a secondary consideration. Is the whole anti-Hoser movement perhaps a snowball effect of his ruffling feathers by exposing smuggling & big buisness practices? Ray does have some "unusual" ideosyncrasies, and I've personally found it hard to supress the odd chuckle on a number of occasions when I've talked to him, but to publically bag a bloke for a few strange personality traits is a bit out of order. Lets keep the whole thing in perspective: Like him, hate him, or be ambivilent, it doesn't matter. Just keep in mind that Hoser isn't the only person to have voids. Nor is he the only person to have ever cut an animal up to create them. Instead, ask the question "Who's doing it now?"

 

[MrBredli]

I don't have a problem with a certified vet conducting such an operation (as described by John). If Ray had gone to the same vet, and that same vet had performed exactly the same operation as performed at the ARP, on his snakes, then i wouldn't mind it at all. I think *deep breath* that Ray actually has a point when he says that the snakes are less stressed as they no longer need to be hooked and tailed which is a good thing seeing as they are handled so often. However, he certainly overdoes the point (and i'm not surprised as it is the only logical one he has), and to say that anyone who does use a hook on a hot is being cruel is just ridiculous.

In any case, it doesn't matter how many times you tell a young child not to try this at home, if they see you freehandling a Black Snake like it is a python, they are quite likely to attempt it if they ever come across one at home.

Perfoming this procedure on snakes that live in pits to protect idiots who decide to jump in is a fair reason to have it done. Doing it so you can pass them around to anybody and everybody, to inflate your ego, and to inflate your bank balance are not acceptable reasons in my opinion.

These comments are based on a certified vet performing the procedure. Hoser's hack jobs just makes it so far more worse..

 

[elapid68]

I've avoided commenting until now, but having read 5 pages without anyone seeming to notice two glaring similarities means I had to finally offer my opinion!
Ray Hoser has voids. ARP has voids. Correction, ARP HAD voids. Everyone seems to have overlooked the fact that Hoser hasn't performed the proceedure for years, yet all seemed to take note of the fact that neither has ARP. The bottom line is both had them, both created them, & neither has created any more for some period of time. So why is Hoser continually castigated for still having them? Would everyone feel better if all the said animals were promptly put down? Would it change anything? Ray would still be remembered & vilified as the "man who voided hots". He AND at least one other person, who seems to be immune from comment because he's a vet. I'm not convinced of Hoser's claims that the herps dont feel it. I'm far from convinced that a kitchen table is an appropriate place for surgery. But I'm also far from convinced that it has no long-term effect on the animal in any way, & therefore the fact that it was done in a different manner becomes a secondary consideration. Is the whole anti-Hoser movement perhaps a snowball effect of his ruffling feathers by exposing smuggling & big buisness practices? Ray does have some "unusual" ideosyncrasies, and I've personally found it hard to supress the odd chuckle on a number of occasions when I've talked to him, but to publically bag a bloke for a few strange personality traits is a bit out of order. Lets keep the whole thing in perspective: Like him, hate him, or be ambivilent, it doesn't matter. Just keep in mind that Hoser isn't the only person to have voids. Nor is he the only person to have ever cut an animal up to create them. Instead, ask the question "Who's doing it now?"

Thank you, couldn't have put it better myself. You've hit the nail on the head on so many levels.

 

[darkangel]

i don't know too much about this man but i definately don't like his methods. as far as him draping the snakes over children i don't think it's that big a deal personally. i think it would be a better idea to limit the number of snakes being handed out so he could keep a better eye on them all though. i think if you get to hold any animal not just snakes you respect them and appreciate them so much more and you realise just how beautiful they are. it's one thing to look but if you have the chance to hold them it's something different again. also, if they no longer have their venom glands then all they can do bite just like any of the snakes you and i have at home. i let my son hold my mac all the time just like alot of other parents do on this site. all snakes have the potential to bite whether they are "tame" or not. if parents are worried about that it's as simple as not letting your children participate in the snake holding. from what i can gather nobody has been bitten by any of his snakes at these shows though.

 

[Inkslinger]

IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on, but I digress Voiding or not well the practice still goes on as does tail docking earclipping and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.
Why do we do these things? BECAUSE WE CAN the greatest failing of the human race, for those that put forth the argument that they have a right to live as Elapids it could also be said they have a right to live free not in captivity.

 

[elapid68]

IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on, but I digress Voiding or not well the practice still goes on as does tail docking earclipping and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.
Why do we do these things? BECAUSE WE CAN the greatest failing of the human race, for those that put forth the argument that they have a right to live as Elapids it could also be said they have a right to live free not in captivity.

So why do Elapids have the right to live free and not captivity and not pythons, lizards, Turtles, Parrots, Finches and all the other native animals and birds that we in Victoria keep.
And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??

 

[moosenoose]

and circumcision the later being one of the most barbaric procedures I have ever seen done with no good reason other than "Dads" done.

But in years to come that same kid will probably head off and bang a metal bar through the top of it anyway all in the name of fashion! It can't hurt all that much! Nobody remembers having it happen to them!

 

[IsK67]

And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??

Well................


IsK

 

[junglepython2]

IMO I dont think that anyone in the private sector should be allowed to own hots, well in Victoria anyway, I have seen them housed in click clacks handled irresponsibly, the list goes on,

Pythons, dogs, cats, birds and just about every pet imaginable has been housed/fed/treated irresponsibly at times its no reason to ban them.

 

[elapid68]

And why only Victoria. Are we in some way inferior to the rest of the country??

Well................


IsK

:lol::lol::lol: Now, now IsK, play nice