Evolution question
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Radar
Very Well-Known Member
True, and it can be seen in much larger organisms, too. Take salmon; humans have, by way of directional selection via fishing with gill nets, steadily reduced the adult size at which some species reproduce. Simply by removing the larger individuals on a yearly basis as they travel upstream, we have created a new mortatlity factor, meaning larger adults are removed by 'natural (or in this case, artifical) selection'. This means those that breed at smaller sizes and younger ages are more likely to pass on their genes (as the smaller individuals pass through the nets), and as such at least one sp. (can't remember scientific name, sorry) are evolving to breed at a smaller size. There is ample data to back this up, Im pretty sure you could probably google it (but Im not saying you should trust anything on the net
).But......how did we get here from vego's Vs Cromag's?
J
junglepython2
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How is what I said rubbish? Have a look outside, vegitarian animals spend a much higher proportion of their time eating compared to omnivores and carnivores. And I never said humans are carnivores. How about you do some research.
Radar
Very Well-Known Member
:lol::lol::lol:
Yes by simple fact we wouldnt exist(be livng) if we didnt eat meat and wernt violent...
It comes down to the fact that people are able to make choices for themselves. If someone wants to be vego, who cares? If others want to eat meat, who cares?
The only time I have a problem with anything is when others try to force their views down my throat - whether it be vegetarians, religious freaks, politics etc. 'Live and let live', I say.
The only time I have a problem with anything is when others try to force their views down my throat - whether it be vegetarians, religious freaks, politics etc. 'Live and let live', I say.
Wow! A thread on APS about evolution where the posts which make sense outnumber those that don't! :shock:
Meat is a higher quality food than vegetation. Obtaining meat requires more intelligence than obtaining plants. With very few exceptions (funnily enough, snakes are very often exceptions to the rule), predators are more intelligent than the things they eat (well, vegetarians usually are too, but it's not difficult to outbrain most plants). These three facts are not really debatable unless you're highly ignorant or stupid (yes, I know, I'm rather tactless *shrug*).
It always amazes me when people say human digestive systems are not designed for meat. This is a bit like saying our hands are useless for manipulating tools and evolution only designed them to be used as heat-sinks!
If you're ever so inclined, cut open some vegetarian animals (koalas, horses, sheep, cows, etc etc), then cut open some carnivorous animals (tigers, lions, snakes, sharks, crocodiles, dolpins, etc etc) and you'll notice a massive, massive unmistakable difference between them. Then cut open some omnivores (most bears, pigs, dogs, wolves, etc etc) and you'll see that they're remarkably similar to humans. The digestive systems of humans are utterly unlike those of vegetarian animals, and yes, also unlike those of strict carnivores. You see the exact same thing when you look at the teeth - ours are utterly unsuited to a vegetarian diet, not specialised for meat alone (and certainly not designed to catch live animals), but good for processing a wide range of things. We are unique among predators in that we generally hunt with tools rather than catching our prey with our claws or teeth, so we have brilliant hands to use weapons, but no impressive weapons as part of our bodies. Most of you probably won't have the opportunity to cut up a wide range of animals and examine their skulls, but you'll probably be able to find reasonable pictures of digestive tract dissections online. Once you've taken a close look at a range of digestive systems and learned about the way in which they work, there is no question remaining about what humans have evolved to eat - just about everything! The only things we're not very good at using are grasses and other plants which are difficult to chew or digest. Looking at our bodies with an understanding of how they work makes it clear that eating meat has hugely influenced what we are.
Meat is a higher quality food than vegetation. Obtaining meat requires more intelligence than obtaining plants. With very few exceptions (funnily enough, snakes are very often exceptions to the rule), predators are more intelligent than the things they eat (well, vegetarians usually are too, but it's not difficult to outbrain most plants). These three facts are not really debatable unless you're highly ignorant or stupid (yes, I know, I'm rather tactless *shrug*).
It always amazes me when people say human digestive systems are not designed for meat. This is a bit like saying our hands are useless for manipulating tools and evolution only designed them to be used as heat-sinks!
If you're ever so inclined, cut open some vegetarian animals (koalas, horses, sheep, cows, etc etc), then cut open some carnivorous animals (tigers, lions, snakes, sharks, crocodiles, dolpins, etc etc) and you'll notice a massive, massive unmistakable difference between them. Then cut open some omnivores (most bears, pigs, dogs, wolves, etc etc) and you'll see that they're remarkably similar to humans. The digestive systems of humans are utterly unlike those of vegetarian animals, and yes, also unlike those of strict carnivores. You see the exact same thing when you look at the teeth - ours are utterly unsuited to a vegetarian diet, not specialised for meat alone (and certainly not designed to catch live animals), but good for processing a wide range of things. We are unique among predators in that we generally hunt with tools rather than catching our prey with our claws or teeth, so we have brilliant hands to use weapons, but no impressive weapons as part of our bodies. Most of you probably won't have the opportunity to cut up a wide range of animals and examine their skulls, but you'll probably be able to find reasonable pictures of digestive tract dissections online. Once you've taken a close look at a range of digestive systems and learned about the way in which they work, there is no question remaining about what humans have evolved to eat - just about everything! The only things we're not very good at using are grasses and other plants which are difficult to chew or digest. Looking at our bodies with an understanding of how they work makes it clear that eating meat has hugely influenced what we are.
As someone with a degree in paleoanthropology, I can honestly say that was a pretty stupid comment
why?
And S. nice try, but fail. not quite on the money, but its amazing would you can do with twisting the facts. Meat in itself, is not the be all or end all factor. Just because you like to eat it, and because you consider yourself a scientists, doesnt mean you will fool everyone.
In 1990, I participated in a world wide survey to see what the effects of meat eating was on gastrointestinal cancer. Using data from over 30 years, surveying over 10 million people. We learnt, that in those cultures where regular meat eating was introduced, that the incidence of cancer went up by 86%. Now, if meat is so essential to our survival, intelligence and so on, why does it cause cells to metatastisise in such a fashion. We published the research in the Journal of Medicine, (main researcher was D.J Frommer). In the same year the meat industry increased its funding to research by an astronomical amount to anyone prepared to find data that state that meat eating is healthy and necessary.
If you are able to think, you are able to derive something from that.
Now I have had the opportunity to cut up people and animals, and examine skulls and so forth. I went from being a paleontologist to a paleoanthropologist and so on... until I quit the scene all together so don't get Mr Qualified on me. Your facts are not entirely wrong, they are just twisted subjectively.
mr black
Active Member
I could write a few pages of a response but I will not as this thread is slowly sliding into some sort of messy mix of heated arguments
So instead I will summarise my opinions in regards to the original question:
1. Yes eating meat has helped us evolve to where we are due to the introduction of new amino acids and the need to change for the purpose of hunting i.e fashioning of tools, walking on hind legs etc.
2. It is not the sole reason we have evolved this far in terms of intelligence.
I personally believe social structure has led us to where we are, which is also mirrored to a similar extent in chimps and elephants, which coincidentally are the only two other animals to show sighs of 'consciousness'. Social structure among humans has allowed for milestone marks in anthropology such as land cultivation and domestication of animals, and if you don't have to spend time hunting and gathering then you can work on many other things etc
Recently a new theory was proposed in regards to our brains evolving due to sexual selection. I will not get into it here, but for anyone with knowledge of evolution it is basically the classic 'male peacocks tail feathers' sexual selection argument as applied to humans and I personally believe it has merit.
So instead I will summarise my opinions in regards to the original question:
1. Yes eating meat has helped us evolve to where we are due to the introduction of new amino acids and the need to change for the purpose of hunting i.e fashioning of tools, walking on hind legs etc.
2. It is not the sole reason we have evolved this far in terms of intelligence.
I personally believe social structure has led us to where we are, which is also mirrored to a similar extent in chimps and elephants, which coincidentally are the only two other animals to show sighs of 'consciousness'. Social structure among humans has allowed for milestone marks in anthropology such as land cultivation and domestication of animals, and if you don't have to spend time hunting and gathering then you can work on many other things etc
Recently a new theory was proposed in regards to our brains evolving due to sexual selection. I will not get into it here, but for anyone with knowledge of evolution it is basically the classic 'male peacocks tail feathers' sexual selection argument as applied to humans and I personally believe it has merit.
I personally disagree that there are few exceptions, there are thousands of types of fishes, snakes, invetebrates that are quite simply very dumb but will be happy to eat a mouse, seal etc. This doesnt really affect your arguement as relevant to the discussion, as these animals dont need to be smart.(and yes im stupid so im able to debate your point)
Yes you would be a better politician than scientist.
Subjective opinion again rules the day.
mr black
Active Member
Actually I am a vegetarian. My point was that an elephant is a herbivore, it is intelligent.
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