2012 and we're now OK with hybrids?

[Jason]

I would have to agree, the majority are into something that looks good, is "new" and no one else has (a bit like a new pair of designer shoes).

So that makes it more acceptable? breeding colorful critters for newbies justifies the process?
Purists are really starting to question purity, doesn't that bother the hybridizers? Or is it not their problem?
So far I've seen in this thread those who support hybrids argue that: the newbs like them, they're colorful/attractive, they sell for good dollars hence people want them. Are these the reasons why it's more acceptable now? Do hybridizers believe that these reasons (and I'm sure others) make it morally acceptable to slowly pollute pure stocks. IMO it is ignorant to think that a massive increase in hybrids wont pollute 'pure animals', even if just a bit.

 

[Cockney_Red]

I will never jump ship. To me, it's a reminder of what we humans do to everything we touch (being a bit melodramatic). Personally, the evolution and biology of a particular species is what does it for me, I don't want the latest candy coloured morph mongrel on the market just to say I have one. It's like keeping up with the Jones's, snakes have become the latest new must have product and no one gives a bugger about anything "real", which is not why I got into herps in the first place.

Sum up! for me, the limit should always be "Line Breeding" In sub species of Morelia....

 

[trento]

And this is why i will only buy and breed my locality specific reptiles one day you wont be able to buy em because the rest will all be mix breeds and locality captive breeds will be highly sort after like in the US we need a pedigree system to be able to keep track of pure lines at least you could keep track of whats what

 

[nervous]

And this is why i will only buy and breed my locality specific reptiles one day you wont be able to buy em because the rest will all be mix breeds and locality captive breeds will be highly sort after like in the US we need a pedigree system to be able to keep track of pure lines at least you could keep track of whats what

and how would you PROVE they are PURE???

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

So that makes it more acceptable? breeding colorful critters for newbies justifies the process?
Purists are really starting to question purity, doesn't that bother the hybridizers? Or is it not their problem?
So far I've seen in this thread those who support hybrids argue that: the newbs like them, they're colorful/attractive, they sell for good dollars hence people want them. Are these the reasons why it's more acceptable now? Do hybridizers believe that these reasons (and I'm sure others) make it morally acceptable to slowly pollute pure stocks. IMO it is ignorant to think that a massive increase in hybrids wont pollute 'pure animals', even if just a bit.

Hi Jason,
Mate i am sure that you & many others are right in saying that it has the potential to pollute pure stocks.
If you are a breeder of pure stock & wish to buy such animals, i would have thought you would source from reputable pure stockists/breeders.
I went through a lot of this when breeding birds for a hobby & nothing has changed.
Let us face it that by now the pet trade has that many diverse/inbred animals for sale to someone that just wants a pet, that you won't stop it. It is a fact that humans will want something different because we have made it that way & possible for people to do so. NOT saying it is right.
If you want a pure breed then you go to someone who has the purebreed & not a mongrel.

Cheers
Ian

 

[Waterrat]

Slightly off the topic.
In another thread we discussed the decline in genetic fitness in salamanders. Scientific evidence suggests that the species have been captive bred since the 1800eds and metamorphoses are mostly fatal. That is a very short and inefficient version, I know.

Think what you like, inbreeding will show some adverse signs sooner or later, and guess which "type" of snakes will suffer from genetic collapse first. What will happen then? Will the wildlife authorities say enough is enough and close us down or will they wash their hands and proclaim captive reptiles as "pets" and stop regulating? Or will there be a division within the hobby where pet keepers, designer breeders, pure line breeders and herpetologists will close ranks and distance themselves from each other? These are hypothetical questions and there is no need to speculate but one thing is for sure - nothing ever stays the same, something will give in and changes will follow.

The majority of new people entering this hobby are people with no other interest than to have a pet to love and care for (not a bad thing at all BTW). Because these people come mainly from urban / city areas, they have little opportunity (and often no interest) to learn about reptilian biology and ecology. Because of that, they are unlikely to develop any interest beyond the pet keeping. This will swing the "hobby" in certain direction ..... which is already happening. I am not criticizing that class of reptile keepers but their unwillingness or lack of interest and also in many cases the lack of opportunity, will drag down those willing to expand their knowledge and contribute to the course. I am predicting some interesting times ahead of us but it will take a while to happen.

and how would you PROVE they are PURE???

Oh no! I though your type went extinct years ago.

 

[imported_Varanus]

imported_Varanus:

your point on it's getting harder to tell these days about locales is what I was trying to allude to that even without 'milkshaking' we are creating a selective pressure on the colour traits of the locale specific animals.

I also agree with what your saying, but I feel there's a big difference between "line breeding" for colour and milkshaking, at least for me! A line bred Lacie is still a Lacie whereas a Lacie x Komodo is on another plain altogether.

 

[nervous]

Oh no! I though your type went extinct years ago.

Meaning what? he mentioned making up a pedigree so we can keep track of the pures... how can anyone prove they have a pure form? if its as simple as saying hey look i have a snake that looks pure i want it on the pedigree... then anyone with a hybrid(sorry, cross, not hybrid) that looks pure could get on that pedigree also.

so i dont see the point in your smart-*** statement...!

 

[MR_IAN_DAVO]

The original question was, do you think that more people are accepting of hybrids.
As time goes on I think yes.
At the same time there is a very clear passage for mistaken identity, this is clear. How to fix, buggered if i know?

It is just like if i wanted a pure native GTP, where would i go?
I would first go to Michael as he claims to have pure lines, but at the same time i believe that he has other lines as well.
Correct me if i am wrong michael. BUT at least as wanting pure lines i should be able to see from the snake that Michael sold me a pure line before i breed it. Should i not? & if not then i won't breed with it if i want pure lines.

Cheers
Ian

 

[trento]

start foundation lines eg from breaders like j.montgomery p krass b barnett c hays b walker j weigel just to name a few make these lines from breeders foundation breeds any one who has brought reptiles from people will have this on record on there licence and start from there like with dogs and cat and horses etc

Meaning what? he mentioned making up a pedigree so we can keep track of the pures... how can anyone prove they have a pure form? if its as simple as saying hey look i have a snake that looks pure i want it on the pedigree... then anyone with a hybrid(sorry, cross, not hybrid) that looks pure could get on that pedigree also.

so i dont see the point in your smart-*** statement...!

i know guys that started the hobby in australia that went in to the bush and got their own snakes back in the 60s and 70s these guys could be the pedigree foundation breeds

 

[congo_python]

Hahahaha this thread is an interesting look into how people percieve questions asked lol. My opinion is yes people are more accepting of hybrids these days, but they will muddy the waters for the years of breeding to come.

Cheers
Congo

 

[PythonLegs]

I think calling them scumbags is a bit strong, sure many people don't like what they are are doing, but it seems the majority either don't care or support them.
Sure there are scumbags breeding Jags etc, but there are people just as bad selling/breeding pure lines as well.
I know hard working and honest people who breed Jags, they do not deserve to be labelled scumbags imo.

I was talking about the scumbags, as in, the dishonest ones, out to rip people off and passing hybrids as pure lines. I am aware there ae many honest sellers. Please try and make sure you comprehend the post before you take offence.

I thought there was a good market for hybridised Cichlids, I see them in many pet shops

Cichlid Hybrids

 

[craigryan]

Nineteen years ago when i got my very first snake, a childrens python, i now belive it was a cross. There were very few animals around up until after the NSW amnesty. Prior to that if you had a childrens and a mac and they bred, they were sold as what they looked like. There were no forums for debate, it was how things were and you were largely unable to acquire animals. Nor did we have the resources we have now. How can anyone be sure what they have now is pure? Did they get them from the wild? Is it more socially acceptable to have cross-breeds? Yes. Opinions change over time. We must now do what we feel is best for the Hobby/industry. Be Honest! Don't sell yourself out for quick $$$. Keep and breed what gives you pleasure. Not for the money. Its already gone.

 

[GeckoJosh]

.......

 

[abnrmal91]

Josh you edit reason says it all. Have people noticed that in the majority of these threads most the posts are from the haters. The people who breed/keep the apparently offensive snake, stay away from the conversation as it always goes the same way. They get abused for doing something different, if someone doesn't like them don't buy one or from someone who keeps/breeds them. It's actually that simple.

 

[GeckoJosh]

Each to their own..........

 

[Pythons Rule]

A jag is purely a hybrid always has been, overseas or here and if that floats ya boat then so be it as long as Australia keeps mainly with the pure lines like so many outside this country envy all of us for then it shouldn't do much damage to our hobby. even though I think jags a stunning creatures I would never keep one or try breed from it as I would rather spend the years it takes to bettering a line or creating a line for myself with a pure species like the Cape York Carpet which is my favourite species. to the question though yes unfortunately in many people’s cases its more acceptable now in Australia’s hobbyists because its a big new mutation that have room to create something new and not with the years of line breeding to worry about, that and the Reduced Patterning and colour that’s been enhanced. I personally will only keep a pure animal I think there stunning and to be able to better the species by purity would be more fulfilling then putting this with that and fingers crossed it may pop out a % of nice looking babies. its a shame most of the big breeders that were once against the whole crossing of species are now all for it and mainly only breed them now. But maybe this is what is needed to allow the rest of us that would like to try breeding something the chance to keep the pure lines going, just a thought.

 

[Retic]

Jags aren't hybrids.

 

[junglepython2]

Jags aren't hybrids.

That all depends on your definition of hybrids, considering the chances of pure coastal Jags being in the country are buckleys to none.

 

[redlittlejim]

Personally dont want to breed them, but my wife would like because of the colours. each to there own. its to late to be able to start labelling which are pure because of how the market has been flooded and because of all the dishonest people out there selling animals off as pure when there not. maybe if years and years ago they had started a label like (purebred) and that was sold with the paperwork like with dogs today but it wasnt and so its too late. Honestly tho, as far as im concerned its the same with dog breeds, pure breds are always worth the $$$ and are better IMO. but people still want crosses cause they can either save a quick buck or they like the look of a ccross.