Hi all so I was looking through threads and noticed that amazing enclosure that just plain nuts has on show with the aquarium in the bottom. I was just wondering how many people have that in an enclosure, what sort of snakes they have in it and if they have turtles or fish in there? Has anyone had cats or plecos etc in there? Just wondering about spines etc? Also if it had a good filter and covered the bottom of the enclosure than in theory it would require less cleaning (the snake poo would be no prob if it was in the water)? Currently I have 8 or so tanks but they are not all in use so I was thinking about using one to build a new enclosure. The turtles I have at the moment I wouldnt be so inclined to put in with a snake as they have a bit of a bite on them (murray's) but I would try ELN as they tend to have a much more gentle bite. Any info or comments be appreciated.
Aquarium in enclosure
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longqi
Very Well-Known Member
If you drop a clear screen between the snakes and the turtles/fish you can put anything in there
Same deal if you put say water pythons with a dry basking spot and chondros up top
Now that one looks awesome
Same deal if you put say water pythons with a dry basking spot and chondros up top
Now that one looks awesome
Yeah that makes sense but I was thinking the snake can swim and eat the fish if it wants although thinking about it Im guessing the fish wont last very long. Ah the idea of combining enclosures is very appealing as long as the animals were not just looking at each other all the time if that makes sense. Also having a tank at say 26 C at the bottom of a high enclosure and a radiator at the top would be good for temp would it not?
vampstorso
Very Well-Known Member
The fish would die I imagine...as the snake droppings would overwhelm the water and make it toxic extremely quickly..you'd need a fairly large amount of water for it to be sustainable if the snake is able to excrete in it...
Fish can't handle fast changes too their water
(lol probably sounded like I was having a dig, please dont take it that way!)
Fish can't handle fast changes too their water
(lol probably sounded like I was having a dig, please dont take it that way!)
All good, no I was thinking a good canister filter would handle it as long as the fish were not too big or too many. I mean it works for the turtles and they are very messy (and have fish with them but not always for long). That and snakes poo a lot less than turtles. Im guessing the snake would eat the fish anyway but its just an idea. Ill do a fair bit more looking around before I try it though, just the start of one of those ideas.
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Im not so sure about this but would love a discussion along these lines
Reptile droppings have far less nutrients in them than dropping of fish birds or mammals
I believe this to be true because I used to design water efficient closed fish farming recirculating systems
I used water to grow fish and prawns etc with moving bed bio-filters of my own design
Used screens to remove the fish droppings
Used dropping to grow lettuces etc in hydroponics system
Used water from hydroponic system to grow aquatic worms to feed chickens and fingerlings
Used waste chickens to feed young crocs
Used crocs to make handbags and burgers
Fed used water from crocs back to hydro system
The water from the crocs had very very little impact on the nutrition levels of the hydroponic water but did drop the ph
[probably uric acid from urine??]
But the fish and chicken droppings sent Nitrates and Nitrites through the roof
After a few days in the hydro the water was stripped of Ammonia Nitrate and Nitrite by the plants and was very close to drinkable so I recycled some back to the fish [but not to prawns] with no noticeable problems
I think it is the digestive efficiency of reptiles which strips every useable bit of nutrient from their food that caused this
But Im no rocket scientist and could be totally on the wrong track
Just_Plain_Nuts
Very Well-Known Member
We have built a lot of enclosures with aquariums in the bottom, in fact they are the most popular of late.
1: Do the snakes eat the fish?
I have not had or heard of anyone's snake eating the fish, having said that if you were to put in a red belly or CTS I dare say they would but it would be what you want and you'd put in fish accordingly. My diamind python used to swim happily with the fish and completely ignore them and they'd just be curious of her.
2: Does the snake poo affect the water?
I have been running this sort of setup for over a year now and find it very convenient when the snake poos in the water. As long as you dont have too many fish and a good filter (as in any aquarium setup) it's great. I only need to clean the aquarium about once a month.
3: Can you put a snake and a turtle together in a setup like this?
We have made setups like this for people before who have put a GTP in the top and a turtle in the bottom. We have not heard of anyone having any problems yet. I dont foresee it being a big problem as long as you dont put in a large snake and a baby turtle or a baby snake and a large turtle. If they are of the right size it would only come down to the individual animals , more so if the turtle is snappy and if the snake likes swimming. The worst I would think is that the turtle gets a little too curious and bites at the snake tail. But like I said I have not heard of anyone having any problems.
4: Do I think this setup works and would I recommend it?
Absolutely
1: Do the snakes eat the fish?
I have not had or heard of anyone's snake eating the fish, having said that if you were to put in a red belly or CTS I dare say they would but it would be what you want and you'd put in fish accordingly. My diamind python used to swim happily with the fish and completely ignore them and they'd just be curious of her.
2: Does the snake poo affect the water?
I have been running this sort of setup for over a year now and find it very convenient when the snake poos in the water. As long as you dont have too many fish and a good filter (as in any aquarium setup) it's great. I only need to clean the aquarium about once a month.
3: Can you put a snake and a turtle together in a setup like this?
We have made setups like this for people before who have put a GTP in the top and a turtle in the bottom. We have not heard of anyone having any problems yet. I dont foresee it being a big problem as long as you dont put in a large snake and a baby turtle or a baby snake and a large turtle. If they are of the right size it would only come down to the individual animals , more so if the turtle is snappy and if the snake likes swimming. The worst I would think is that the turtle gets a little too curious and bites at the snake tail. But like I said I have not heard of anyone having any problems.
4: Do I think this setup works and would I recommend it?
Absolutely
I think these type of semi-aquatic enclosures are the best for Common Tree Snakes. Their high metabolism rate means that they eat and consequently crap frequently. Having a completely aquatic bottom section and an arboreal top section means that the filter does most of your cleaning for you. Plus tree snakes are excellent swimmers, so it makes for good viewing.
The one thing you do have to watch out for, particularly in the colder climates, is the condensation produced. This can be overcome by having an internal heat source (I use a blacklight) low down in the enclosure, which helps evaporates the water of the walls. Tree snakes are smart enough and fast enough to avoid burning themselves. Good ventilation just above water level should help as well.
The same applies to Keelbacks, except you want to give them deeper water and a terrestrial dry section.
Here are some (old) photos of my setups ...
The one thing you do have to watch out for, particularly in the colder climates, is the condensation produced. This can be overcome by having an internal heat source (I use a blacklight) low down in the enclosure, which helps evaporates the water of the walls. Tree snakes are smart enough and fast enough to avoid burning themselves. Good ventilation just above water level should help as well.
The same applies to Keelbacks, except you want to give them deeper water and a terrestrial dry section.
Here are some (old) photos of my setups ...
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
The great info given above made me want to add my 2 cents worth…
What will eat what will depend on the species you choose.
Snakes that I know of that eat live fish from the water are Keelback, CTS, Red-bellied Black, Tiger and most of the aquatic species. Frogs eaters, such as the Copperhead and Slatey Grey are a good chance to be trained to do so. I know BTS can be trained to take fish from a bowl but not sure about a body of water. Water pythons may also do. Turtles will eat fish small enough to fit in their rather large mouths.
The type of fish and their size will determine if they are eaten. Those that are of a size and shape that can be swallowed and which swim in open water, especially near the surface, are the most likely to be taken by snakes.
Turtles do produce a lot of wastes due to their active life-style under water. Snakes produce a lot less. Nitrogenous wastes (ammonia, urea and ureic acid) are the result of breaking down protein in eaten food to use it for energy (and not body building) [visions of a Bearded Dragon doing push-ups and then flexing its biceps lol]. Therefore highly active animals and endotherms tend to produce large amounts of nitrogenous wastes.
[FONT="]Nitrogenous Wastes[/FONT]
Ammonia is highly toxic and highly soluble. If you have plenty of water to drink you can afford to get rid of in as a weak solution (not too toxic) but it does mean producing a very large quantity of dilute urine. This is what fish do.
By the body expending energy, ammonia can be converted into urea, much less toxic substance which can therefore be tolerated in much higher concentrations, before needing to excrete it. This still involves producing quantities of urine and therefore requires regular access to drinking water.
Using some more energy, urea can be converted into uric acid, which is insoluble. This is a white chalky solid that does not require loss of moisture to get rid of it. This is what most reptiles and birds produce, often along with a bit of urine containing urea.
[FONT="]Bacterial Breakdown of Nitrogenous Wastes[/FONT]
Certain forms of bacteria get their energy from reversing the conversion of ammonia to urea. Using either this or fish wastes, another form of bacteria converts ammonia to nitrites, which are far les toxic than ammonia. Yet another form of bacteria convert nitrites into nitrates, which are far less toxic again. These bacteria are used in biological filtration of aquarium water to maintain water quality and considerably increase the amount of time between required water changes.
[FONT="]Aquatic Plants[/FONT]
Plants are able to absorb and use ammonia, nitrates and urea as fertiliser. Therefore growing aquatic plants in your aquarium will further help maintain water quality.
What will eat what will depend on the species you choose.
Snakes that I know of that eat live fish from the water are Keelback, CTS, Red-bellied Black, Tiger and most of the aquatic species. Frogs eaters, such as the Copperhead and Slatey Grey are a good chance to be trained to do so. I know BTS can be trained to take fish from a bowl but not sure about a body of water. Water pythons may also do. Turtles will eat fish small enough to fit in their rather large mouths.
The type of fish and their size will determine if they are eaten. Those that are of a size and shape that can be swallowed and which swim in open water, especially near the surface, are the most likely to be taken by snakes.
Turtles do produce a lot of wastes due to their active life-style under water. Snakes produce a lot less. Nitrogenous wastes (ammonia, urea and ureic acid) are the result of breaking down protein in eaten food to use it for energy (and not body building) [visions of a Bearded Dragon doing push-ups and then flexing its biceps lol]. Therefore highly active animals and endotherms tend to produce large amounts of nitrogenous wastes.
[FONT="]Nitrogenous Wastes[/FONT]
Ammonia is highly toxic and highly soluble. If you have plenty of water to drink you can afford to get rid of in as a weak solution (not too toxic) but it does mean producing a very large quantity of dilute urine. This is what fish do.
By the body expending energy, ammonia can be converted into urea, much less toxic substance which can therefore be tolerated in much higher concentrations, before needing to excrete it. This still involves producing quantities of urine and therefore requires regular access to drinking water.
Using some more energy, urea can be converted into uric acid, which is insoluble. This is a white chalky solid that does not require loss of moisture to get rid of it. This is what most reptiles and birds produce, often along with a bit of urine containing urea.
[FONT="]Bacterial Breakdown of Nitrogenous Wastes[/FONT]
Certain forms of bacteria get their energy from reversing the conversion of ammonia to urea. Using either this or fish wastes, another form of bacteria converts ammonia to nitrites, which are far les toxic than ammonia. Yet another form of bacteria convert nitrites into nitrates, which are far less toxic again. These bacteria are used in biological filtration of aquarium water to maintain water quality and considerably increase the amount of time between required water changes.
[FONT="]Aquatic Plants[/FONT]
Plants are able to absorb and use ammonia, nitrates and urea as fertiliser. Therefore growing aquatic plants in your aquarium will further help maintain water quality.
these sound amazing! id love to see a few photos of ones youve put together if thats ok?
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Great posts above
Ty Blue for putting real names to things
The plant one is a love of mine
Works really well in farm dams
Put in a floating dock so plants roots can reach the water but with most of the roots inside an open mesh cage
Put in fish
Put in shrimps
Shrimps will hide and breed among the roots
Roots will strip fish waste from water
As shrimp number grow fish eat extra shrimps
Harvest time eat plants shrimps and fish
cant do better than that
Ty Blue for putting real names to things
The plant one is a love of mine
Works really well in farm dams
Put in a floating dock so plants roots can reach the water but with most of the roots inside an open mesh cage
Put in fish
Put in shrimps
Shrimps will hide and breed among the roots
Roots will strip fish waste from water
As shrimp number grow fish eat extra shrimps
Harvest time eat plants shrimps and fish
cant do better than that
B
Bluetongue1
Guest
I don't want to start a self-admiration society here logqi but what a great set up. The simplicity of that that system belies the complex range of biological processes involved. In simple terms you have your producers and consumers, plenty of water and sunlight, and detrivores to hasten the recycling of matter. The shrimp quite likely also reduce competition from algae for the plants obtaining fish waste. End result, three very palatable food sources. You’re right – couldn’t do better!
Blue
Blue
Thanks heaps everyone, made my day. It was as I though which means I have a new project. I want a tree snake as my next one so it seems pretty perfect.
Also I cant wait till the weather is a bit better so I can finish my pond and show you guys, its going to have the larger turtles, fish (to be eaten by turtles), gipps or ewd and a bird cage over the top. Im going to use a permaculture set up to filter it and grow vegies and Im hoping the gipps also eat att the insects etc. Love my animals and love my cooking so herbs or vegies will be awesome. I havent done all the research yet so if anyone knows of any plans I shouldnt grow with the turtles or lizards let me know.
Also I cant wait till the weather is a bit better so I can finish my pond and show you guys, its going to have the larger turtles, fish (to be eaten by turtles), gipps or ewd and a bird cage over the top. Im going to use a permaculture set up to filter it and grow vegies and Im hoping the gipps also eat att the insects etc. Love my animals and love my cooking so herbs or vegies will be awesome. I havent done all the research yet so if anyone knows of any plans I shouldnt grow with the turtles or lizards let me know.
Just_Plain_Nuts
Very Well-Known Member
here's the last one we did, excuse the crappy photo but i'm looking for a decent camera for low light that can open its aperture for at least a minute, any ideas not too expensive.
We are just about to start another for an APS member
here's the last one we did, excuse the crappy photo but i'm looking for a decent camera for low light that can open its aperture for at least a minute, any ideas not too expensive.
We are just about to start another for an APS member
wow that looks awesome! definitely something to think about in the future =]
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
Main thing is to select the correct plants
You want ones like Bazil and some other herbs etc because they are fairly hardy, dont require too much nutrient etc and most importantly dont need insecticide in most places
I never included lizards anywhere so cannot help you there
Lettuces etc grow with even less nutrient but are hard to keep free of pests
The hardiest lettuces are the red ones
Taste bloody awful though
With the pond set up it is best to be in a windy area
That way you can run water aeration for virtually nothing
Just boosting it on calm days
Best I ever got without continual electric aeration was 19.5KG per Cubic Metre
With electric aeration growing Tandanus and Silver Perch in ponds I hit 35kg which is exceptionally high
Each system has its own peculiarities and only experimentation will show you the ideal plants for your system
With a closed recirculation type system you can hit close to 80KG per cubic metre if you grow things like sleepy cod or murray cod
Barramundi top out at about 60KG without oxygen injection
You want ones like Bazil and some other herbs etc because they are fairly hardy, dont require too much nutrient etc and most importantly dont need insecticide in most places
I never included lizards anywhere so cannot help you there
Lettuces etc grow with even less nutrient but are hard to keep free of pests
The hardiest lettuces are the red ones
Taste bloody awful though
With the pond set up it is best to be in a windy area
That way you can run water aeration for virtually nothing
Just boosting it on calm days
Best I ever got without continual electric aeration was 19.5KG per Cubic Metre
With electric aeration growing Tandanus and Silver Perch in ponds I hit 35kg which is exceptionally high
Each system has its own peculiarities and only experimentation will show you the ideal plants for your system
With a closed recirculation type system you can hit close to 80KG per cubic metre if you grow things like sleepy cod or murray cod
Barramundi top out at about 60KG without oxygen injection
I meant smaller fish for the turtles to eat, not for myself as the pond will only be a 1000-1500Lt. Im planning on a a sort of waterfall (nothing spectacular, just for air) and the water will be pumped up to to that end and than through rock wool or somthing similar holding the plants. Im hoping that with the lizards they eat the bugs and pests etc eliminating the need for any chemicals (which I wouldnt use anyway). Basically Im hoping for an almost self sufficient system by the time its set up and running. I have been researching it for close to two years now (except for the actual plants) so I think this spring will be the time to set it up. Not sure if Ill have the turtles in it by the summer (it really depends on the water) or if I will wait till next year but I will at least have some fish and yabbies to get it going. Most of my garden is pretty good and I dont use chemicals although I had to cut a lemon tree right back recently and the bay tree is generaly a problem but thats not unusual. It is down the side of the house so it does get wind and I have already built large fences and gates so the dogs cant get to it but Ill still be putting and avery type cage over it because of cats. (I dont have cats)
As far as plants due to the ammonia cycle etc I was thinking one permanent citrus (pruned to stay quite small) and various seasonal's that can be changed. I guess more research and a bit of trial and error will see.
As far as plants due to the ammonia cycle etc I was thinking one permanent citrus (pruned to stay quite small) and various seasonal's that can be changed. I guess more research and a bit of trial and error will see.
longqi
Very Well-Known Member
If you make the waterfall a bit "Lumpy' it will cause the water to flow unevenly
This will increase air contact and increase dissolved oxygen in the water
Turtles seem to enjoy some plants such as lettuces and bok choy etc but probably would not touch any citrus
Some of the stronger smelling herbs could also work well but trial and error is the best way
This will increase air contact and increase dissolved oxygen in the water
Turtles seem to enjoy some plants such as lettuces and bok choy etc but probably would not touch any citrus
Some of the stronger smelling herbs could also work well but trial and error is the best way
vampstorso
Very Well-Known Member
hey Longqi,
I have to admit to not knowing much about reptile poo
(Havent really had enough experience to know anything about it!)
However if like you say it doesn't contain much ammonia etc then that'd certainly make it all more likely to work!
I only know the fish side of it as that's what I study... So it really would be cool if what you were thinking was right,
No doubt if you get enough bio filtration it'll be okay then.
Goodluck!
I have to admit to not knowing much about reptile poo
(Havent really had enough experience to know anything about it!)However if like you say it doesn't contain much ammonia etc then that'd certainly make it all more likely to work!
I only know the fish side of it as that's what I study... So it really would be cool if what you were thinking was right,
No doubt if you get enough bio filtration it'll be okay then.
Goodluck!
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