Are Diporiphora Winneckei In Captivity?

Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum

Help Support Aussie Pythons & Snakes Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Status
Not open for further replies.

WeirdzandBeardz

Not so new Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2016
Messages
35
Reaction score
51
Location
Sydney
Just wondering if Diporiphora winneckei are in captivity anymore? I understand they were around a few years ago, but I'm curious if they're still being bred.

Cheers!

Sent from my HTC_0P6B6 using Tapatalk
 
Yes, these are still in private collections, at least 2 that I am aware of other than myself, with some likelihood of 1 or 2 others and yes they are still being bred in captivity although not in the same numbers as they were 4-6 years ago. I keep everything I breed unless I can swap like for like with other keepers so I can introduce new genetic material into my breeding groups.

Hopefully in the future (next couple of seasons) we will get these going again in numbers large enough to start releasing them into the hobby again.

Mark Hawker
 
Ah good stuff Mark!

I've spoken to a few people that have mentioned what you're doing and it's excellent to see that this species is in your hands! I'm very keen to see more Diporiphora in the hobby I think they're brilliant little dragons.

Do you think their reduced presence in the hobby is due to husbandry, clutch size, interest or a combination of the above? I think they're a remarkably intriguing species and curious as to why they disappeared.

I'd definitely be keen to be put on your list for when they get released!

Cheers,

Mitch
 
Hi Mitch,
Sorry about the slow response, been away from the computer for a few days and have only now had the chance to respond to your questions.

Speaking about Canegrass dragons here, there was never a lot of them in captivity in the first place, probably no more keepers 6 or 7 years ago than what there are now. The reason they appeared to be around in numbers is because there was a little bit of activity on this forum with a guy who had a group of them posting up pictures and talking about them. I think he has since moved out of the hobby, he is certainly not active on APS any more and hasn't been for several years. He had them for a short period of time before deciding to get rid of them. I actually bought them from him.

They are very short lived dragons, mine go 3-5 years with 4 being pretty usual and they produce small clutches of eggs. I have never had any more than 5, the usual number is 3 or 4. They are about the size of a small pea. As you can appreciate it is very easy to see a situation where at the end of a breeding season you could have 12 or 15 of these but during the course of the year you lose quite a few so that as the new season starts you could easily be left with only 5 or 6 to try and get your colony going again. This has happened to me three times over the last 7 years and I have even had a season or 2 where no breeding took place at all. The females only produce 2 or 3 clutches in a season if you are lucky and not every female will produce eggs every season so you never really end up with a big number of them.

A lot of people get into dragons, actually get some interesting species into their collections and then start to hit the wall with the usual problems you get when you are trying to keep dragons particularly small dragons in an artificial environment. For this reason you can add to your list, frustration, lack of the necessary time required to work with these dragons and money (the cost of actually acquiring and maintaining small dragons and the fact that most of the time you can never breed enough to sell on so you can at least offset some of the costs. There is no money in dragons unless you keep them outdoors and only those species you can find in your home range and then you will breed them regularly as Rick Walker does consistently every year.

Otherwise for those of us who keep their collections indoors, trying to provide the right husbandry can be sometimes very difficult. Most people who start out in dragons quickly realise this as their collection starts to grow and move on to other reptile families that are not so demanding in their husbandry requirements. Over the years I have seen several reasonably well known people move out of dragon keeping altogether because of all the things I have talked about and you have suggested as well in tandem. People just decide it is too hard or they couldn't be bothered or it is not worth the effort or whatever other reason and just move on to other animals that they have interests in.

I am planning to spend more time with this species in the next breeding season so hopefully I get a good number of youngsters that I can actually let some go. Just as a matter of interest, I got one infertile clutch this season and another clutch that went full term but lost 2 that did not actually leave the egg, so I ended up with 1 hatchling this season.

Speaking with Tyson Keen who I believe you know quite well I am told you have a strong interest in dragons so I would encourage you to continue to work with them. When you get things right and you see that little neonate come out of the egg from a species you are breeding for the first time, it is a truly gratifying feeling and for me makes all the frustrations, doubts and questions about why I keep dragons just disappear.

Mark Hawker
 
Hi Mitch,
Sorry about the slow response, been away from the computer for a few days and have only now had the chance to respond to your questions.

Speaking about Canegrass dragons here, there was never a lot of them in captivity in the first place, probably no more keepers 6 or 7 years ago than what there are now. The reason they appeared to be around in numbers is because there was a little bit of activity on this forum with a guy who had a group of them posting up pictures and talking about them. I think he has since moved out of the hobby, he is certainly not active on APS any more and hasn't been for several years. He had them for a short period of time before deciding to get rid of them. I actually bought them from him.

They are very short lived dragons, mine go 3-5 years with 4 being pretty usual and they produce small clutches of eggs. I have never had any more than 5, the usual number is 3 or 4. They are about the size of a small pea. As you can appreciate it is very easy to see a situation where at the end of a breeding season you could have 12 or 15 of these but during the course of the year you lose quite a few so that as the new season starts you could easily be left with only 5 or 6 to try and get your colony going again. This has happened to me three times over the last 7 years and I have even had a season or 2 where no breeding took place at all. The females only produce 2 or 3 clutches in a season if you are lucky and not every female will produce eggs every season so you never really end up with a big number of them.

A lot of people get into dragons, actually get some interesting species into their collections and then start to hit the wall with the usual problems you get when you are trying to keep dragons particularly small dragons in an artificial environment. For this reason you can add to your list, frustration, lack of the necessary time required to work with these dragons and money (the cost of actually acquiring and maintaining small dragons and the fact that most of the time you can never breed enough to sell on so you can at least offset some of the costs. There is no money in dragons unless you keep them outdoors and only those species you can find in your home range and then you will breed them regularly as Rick Walker does consistently every year.

Otherwise for those of us who keep their collections indoors, trying to provide the right husbandry can be sometimes very difficult. Most people who start out in dragons quickly realise this as their collection starts to grow and move on to other reptile families that are not so demanding in their husbandry requirements. Over the years I have seen several reasonably well known people move out of dragon keeping altogether because of all the things I have talked about and you have suggested as well in tandem. People just decide it is too hard or they couldn't be bothered or it is not worth the effort or whatever other reason and just move on to other animals that they have interests in.

I am planning to spend more time with this species in the next breeding season so hopefully I get a good number of youngsters that I can actually let some go. Just as a matter of interest, I got one infertile clutch this season and another clutch that went full term but lost 2 that did not actually leave the egg, so I ended up with 1 hatchling this season.

Speaking with Tyson Keen who I believe you know quite well I am told you have a strong interest in dragons so I would encourage you to continue to work with them. When you get things right and you see that little neonate come out of the egg from a species you are breeding for the first time, it is a truly gratifying feeling and for me makes all the frustrations, doubts and questions about why I keep dragons just disappear.

Mark Hawker


Hi Mark, jus wondering have you had much success in breeding crested dragons? I've heard mixed reviews on them, I've been told they can be a very challenging species to keep let alone breed. Any info is appreciated thanks.
 
Hi Mark,

Thank you for answering my questions and with such a great depth of detail! It's really appreciated and informative.

This season is the first I've more focused on my smaller dragons; and of what Tyson (you're correct in saying I know Tyson!) and I have discussed, probably some of the less finicky ones (Painteds and Mountains). With that said I can relate a lot of what you've said to what I've experienced thus far, most importantly that truly gratifying feeling when the neonate emerges from the egg! When I hatched my first painted this season I felt pretty compelled to continue working with small dragons, I found a real sense of achievement working with them compared to a lot of the other things I've bred. As well as that though I've really experienced the fragility of small dragon eggs and hatchlings with exposure to both Tyson's Diporiphora dragons as well as my own animals, which I agree is probably a key factor in their limited availability in the hobby.

With all the discussion around the husbandry of smaller dragons and the breeding variability of species in artificial environments, I have a question for you that Tyson and I recently debated. We both concluded that the high degree of interest currently in small monitors and blue tongue morphs isn't just a function of the animals behaviour, or even just the aesthetics of the animal, but the financial incentive as well. In the realm of small dragons where breeding is undeniably more 'messy' (in relation to lifespan, clutch size, etc) why are small dragons so cheap (Generally - let's not bring ornates into this!)? Do you think the financial element plays a major role in interest within the hobby? I personally love Jacky Dragons, yet so many people regard them as rubbish dragons because they're cheap and common. If they were $300 each like a standard monitor do you think that would have a sizeable shift in the mentality of the hobby and dragons?

I mean ultimately I keep my dragons because I like them, but I wonder if both exposure and the financial element would re-engage the hobby with them. Aussie_Monitors and myself have both been sharing some of our more unique dragons over Facebook in recent months and I think a lot of people aren't even aware of the diversity of dragons present in the hobby (let alone the multitude that aren't). A very common response to one of us sharing longirostirs, caudicinctus, ornatus or reticulatus is awe as so many people have no idea they exist.

I guess with all that said though, if people are chasing them for the money and not the passion is it worth it?

I'd also love to hear your thoughts on the Cresteds, I've heard a lot of gossip about it but nothing from someone who's kept and bred them.

Mitch
 
Hi Mitch and Josh,

Firstly let me answer your questions on C. cristatus and correct you Mitch on your assumption I have bred them in my collection. I have not ever bred Crested Dragons. To be perfectly honest I have never really tried to. There are a number of reasons for this including but not limited to the following

I do not ever have any more than 4 or 5 in my collection at any one time. I currently have 5. They all require individual cages as they can get quite aggressive towards each other, (definitely one of the worst of the dragons I have kept for aggression). The aggression will usually always result in one of the animals eventual demise through emaciation caused by starving itself as a result of stress caused by the aggression. They need much bigger enclosures then most other dragons of similar size because of their tendency to run, they will slam straight into walls and glass, although once seperated the need to run dissipates and they will generally do fine in smaller cages. They are usually readily available through Rick Walker who breeds them every year in his outdoor enclosures so when they die off I just replace them.

Over the years Rick and I have talked a lot about Crested dragons and we are both of the view that they are one of the more difficult if not the most difficult of the dragons to keep. That doesn't mean that people can't actually successfully provide good husbandry and have these dragons live reasonably normal and long lives, it just means that if you don't get the conditions right and you don't watch them closely they can very easily just stop feeding and quite literally starve themselves to death. I actually spend more time with my cresteds than probably any other species I keep and have done for years just to make sure they are feeding and healthy. When you are maintaining a large collection time is really important and having to individually feed each animal one or 2 insects at a time becomes very difficult. If I didn't do this and I just chucked a heap of crickets or woodies in like I do with other species then I know for a fact that they would refuse the food and just starve instead. They quite literally become picky and seem to get bored with the same food. I have a couple of them right now that just wont eat crickets or woodies unless the woodies or crickets are freshly molted (white ones). This means I have to find other types of insects in sufficient numbers to feed them and keep them healthy. Currently I am using Soldier fly larvae and the adult Soldier flies as well as normal household flies, mini mealies and beetles I find in with the woodies and crickets.

Now to your questions Mitch. I have actually maintained Jacky dragons in my collection for well over 30 years and even now have a small group of 6 of them. It was actually Jacky Dragons that pushed me down the path of specialising in dragons and not keeping any other family of reptiles. I first bred Jacky dragons back in the mid nineties and was so excited by the whole process that I literally decided to get rid of my snakes, monitors and other bits and pieces and dedicate myself to dragons. Had I have known at the time how much it was going to cost and how frustrating the journey would be at times, I may have had second thoughts and stayed with monitors but I don't regret my choice.

As I said in my earlier post there is no money to be made in dragons, they cost too much to provide the right husbandry and their breeding success can be very hit and miss. When you talk about people not knowing about certain species of dragons and how surprised they are when they see your Ornates or Ring taileds it is because those people are largely hobbyists, and their interest in reptiles covers the whole range of families from skinks to geckos elapids to pythons etc, and their collection will generally reflect this interest. Then you get people like you, Josh and Tyson who I would regard as enthusiasts because you have become enthusiastic about a particular family of reptiles and you have started to concentrate your collecting to that particular family group but at the same time still maintain an interest and even still have reptiles from other families in your collection. Then you have people like me who specialise in one family or even one genus in a particular family and keep nothing else. There are not a lot of people around in this category but they are definitely there spread across the whole Class of Reptilia. These people will as a rule be totally committed to their specific interest. The point is the demand for enthusiast or specialist species is very small.

With regard your comment on pricing and whether making people pay more for a particular species makes it more desirable, I would remind you of the simple concepts of supply and demand curves that underpins one of the basic principles in microeconomics, that eventually the 2 curves cross at a point called the price equilibrium and that is the point at which supply equals demand. This means that there is little if any likelihood that trying to artificially create desirability through the pricing mechanism in the case of Jacky dragons would be successful. Noone will pay $300. I personally don't think that any small dragons are worth any more than $150 each. That is not to say that I haven't paid more than that for certain species but generally as a rule that is what they seem to sell for and is in my opinion reasonable. Others will have a different view on this and that's fine, at the end of the day the golden rule in marketing (of which selling is one of the distribution processes) set your selling price at what you think you can get for the item being sold, the market will let you know if you are right or not.

Thanks for your interest and questions, I hope my responses help.

Mark Hawker
 
Excellent to have your response on all those thoughts Mark!

I'm glad to have heard about your thoughts and experiences with C.cristatus. Linking into one of your later points about the differences between hobbyists, enthusiasts and specialists - In the same way finding a specialist species can be difficult, so can finding the information crucial for their husbandry. I've read my husbandry guides a million times, but I've found nothing really compares to first hand accounts. I also appreciate that mindset of hobbyist through to specialists, it's a good way of framing people's interests.

Thank you for your thoughts on the pricing question too. Funnily enough I too have reached a conclusion that small dragons are worth around $150, with little deviations here and there. Regardless, the golden rule has proved true and people seem interested in them.

Thanks for your time on the responses Mark. No doubt we will cross paths on a thread again and I'll probe your knowledgeable mind!

Mitch



Sent from my HTC_0P6B6 using Tapatalk
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Back
Top