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Aspidites ramsayi Gravid/ reabsorbing

snakemad3

Not so new Member
Hi folks.
Happy new year to you all, hope everyone had a good a time as you could in these uncertain times.

I am a little confused, and could do with some advice from people who have bread these before.
Up untill now, thought everything was going well, but now... I, do not... know!
Please note that I'm in the UK. It is currently winter here.

So, I started to (in September) cool my Woma pair, in October paired them; Was 6ft when i got her and is 7 now.
Male, is around 5 years old (and was a virgin male, but sevral sucseful locks have been noting, spanning upto a week at a time); He's about 4.5 - 5ft
Female, is about 7 years old (bought her as a proven Breeder).

Begining of October (almost within a week of mating) felt her producing folicles, felt 5, then 6 fastorward to November - December felt 8 all within a few weeks! I only palipated her monthly, to see how she was progressing with Folicular development.
In December, I swore she ovulated! So I turned the (nighttime) heat up. Second-guessing myself now.
Her follicles felt huge about the size of a plumb, maybe bigger, felt them get progressivly bigger from grape size.
As dfar as I'm aware eggs should be about the size of a chicken egg?

Past week or so,. she seems to of deflated to the point she doesn't look gravid anymore! I could just be staring at her too much though.
Although, she still seems to be chunky in lower third... but less so, As i'd find typical post Ov, before their swell post Ov slough.

So, I just palipated her again, at first felt nothing.. then fearing the worst-reabsobsion, waited for her to relax more, but can feel possibly 10 folicles/eggs... herin lies my conumdrum.
They seems to of shrunk to say walnut size! possibly smaller! Is this normal, is she reabsorbing/going to slug out?
My speculations are:

* They felt larger due to folicular growth and swelling, as she did swell and deflate a throughout.
* She hasn't ovulated (pretty sure she did already though).
* Seeing folicular development swelling, or is reabsorbing, or the eggs are.. slugs.
Here is hopping they are just Calsifing ggs or for some reason, have shrunk due to the calcification process.

Guys/girls, can you *PLEASE* shed some light on this!? Is it possible the Ova swelled to huge proportions, shrunk down and calcified at the size of walnuts?
As they felt twice this size last month, Or am i "Going, slightly mad", and shes just so big they feel smaller.
Saying that, So far, not seen her laying on her side, or belly up... Only once saw her side laying, as I was revamping her enclosure to resemble a more naturalistic environment.

Her behaviour leads me to belive she may well be Gravid, as she's now hogging the heat, been more restless and hiding more. I have given her a couple more hides to choose from, cooler and warmer ones. some are heated with cable (sepratly Thermostatically controled, naturally), with led temp probes in the hides ti futrger check the hide and burrow temps.
 

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Sdaji

Almost Legendary
APS Veteran
Trusted Seller
Sounds like you're sending yourself a bit mad, staring and analysing and overthinking yourself to death.

She's either gravid or not. Once they've ovulated, they don't reabsorb. They can't. Biologically, it would be the same as a woman conceiving and then her body eating it. It can't happen. They can die and come out of the body or they can fully develop and come out of the body or in rare cases come out of the body alive but too early to survive outside the mother's body, but one way or another, something will be coming out unless the mother dies before it does.

If she's gravid, the eggs will either be healthy or not. If you're feeling eggs rather than imagining it, and they've greatly decreased in size, they're probably slugs.

Stressing and staring and overanalysing doesn't help, it just stresses you. It won't turn bad eggs into good eggs.

Make sure temperatures are good, etc etc. Don't molest her too much because all that squeezing and palping and handling can be a disturbance which prevents them from laying, which can result in the eggs dying, which can result in egg binding, which can kill the mother. Keep handling and disturbance of gravid females to a minimum. I see too many gravid snakes have their clutches die or die themselves because of too much interference/interaction from keepers who can't stay calm.
 

snakemad3

Not so new Member
Sounds like you're sending yourself a bit mad, staring and analysing and overthinking yourself to death.

She's either gravid or not. Once they've ovulated, they don't reabsorb. They can't. Biologically, it would be the same as a woman conceiving and then her body eating it. It can't happen. They can die and come out of the body or they can fully develop and come out of the body or in rare cases come out of the body alive but too early to survive outside the mother's body, but one way or another, something will be coming out unless the mother dies before it does.

If she's gravid, the eggs will either be healthy or not. If you're feeling eggs rather than imagining it, and they've greatly decreased in size, they're probably slugs.

Stressing and staring and overanalysing doesn't help, it just stresses you. It won't turn bad eggs into good eggs.

Make sure temperatures are good, etc etc. Don't molest her too much because all that squeezing and palping and handling can be a disturbance which prevents them from laying, which can result in the eggs dying, which can result in egg binding, which can kill the mother. Keep handling and disturbance of gravid females to a minimum. I see too many gravid snakes have their clutches die or die themselves because of too much interference/interaction from keepers who can't stay calm.
Thanks for the reply.
@Sdaji
You've helped put my mind at ease!

On the few occasions I have paired and had sucsess with clutches, only once I've ever had any real issues that required veterinary assistance. Fortunately enough theirs an animal hospital literally half a mile from me. Hopefully I'll avoid having to use them, for such emergencies.

I'v kept handling her to a minimum, to avoid stress and complications. As tempting as it is to interact with her lovly self as I usually would, I am just leaving her be.

Apart from that, the only interaction I have with her currently is when I'm doing water changes/temp Checks and she comes up to me.

I thought that maybe the case, although I'm unsure how far along she is. Just hope she is still building. And I'm panicking over nothing!
Really hoping she won't slug out on me.

Temps seem spot on, baught a few high end digital thermostats to ensure everything is in order with temp regulation.

How long post ovulation should I see a prelay Slough, I'm thinking ita about a month
 

Sdaji

Almost Legendary
APS Veteran
Trusted Seller
Not sure how you're feeling for ova/eggs without handling her, but I'm sure you know what you're doing :)

Prelay is usually less than a month after ovulation, but it can vary a lot. Sometimes they don't even have one. The time between ovulation and oviposition is more consistent than between ovulation and prelay slough.
 

snakemad3

Not so new Member
Not sure how you're feeling for ova/eggs without handling her, but I'm sure you know what you're doing :)

Prelay is usually less than a month after ovulation, but it can vary a lot. Sometimes they don't even have one. The time between ovulation and oviposition is more consistent than between ovulation and prelay slough.

@Sdaji Thank you for the speedy reply!

Thanks, Your knowledge I highly value!
I hope too know enough to not mess her up. :)

Handling, I keep to a minimum once pairings underway, (unless shes trying to climb out when I'm retrieving the water dish, i gently direct her back in "Girl, sorry! You can't come out, you could be gravid") and do so monthly to just keep a check on her. Via Palpating for Follicles - let her run through my hands and count them that way. I know its not definite X follices results X Viable an fertile eggs (Ideally though), Maybe Shes still building, an I'm just feeling them at difrent stages of development? I would hope thats the case. Thinking on it; Seems to be the most logical.

Yeah, good point! I am not counting on a pre slough for her.... Will keep an eye out just incase she does. How long From Ovulation to Oviposition? With Slough, think its around month.
IF I've remembered rightly (with other Oviparous Snakes) I seem to, have a vague memory: Of 2-3 months, Does that sound correct/incorrect to you?

Many Thanks..
 

Sdaji

Almost Legendary
APS Veteran
Trusted Seller
@Sdaji Thank you for the speedy reply!

Thanks, Your knowledge I highly value!
I hope too know enough to not mess her up. :)

Handling, I keep to a minimum once pairings underway, (unless shes trying to climb out when I'm retrieving the water dish, i gently direct her back in "Girl, sorry! You can't come out, you could be gravid") and do so monthly to just keep a check on her. Via Palpating for Follicles - let her run through my hands and count them that way. I know its not definite X follices results X Viable an fertile eggs (Ideally though), Maybe Shes still building, an I'm just feeling them at difrent stages of development? I would hope thats the case. Thinking on it; Seems to be the most logical.

Yeah, good point! I am not counting on a pre slough for her.... Will keep an eye out just incase she does. How long From Ovulation to Oviposition? With Slough, think its around month.
IF I've remembered rightly (with other Oviparous Snakes) I seem to, have a vague memory: Of 2-3 months, Does that sound correct/incorrect to you?

Many Thanks..

Again, slough timing isn't terribly consistent. Ovulation to oviposition is more consistent. So, if there was a shorter time between ovulation and sloughing, you'd expect a longer time between sloughing and oviposition, and vice versa.

No, 3 months is far too long. It should generally be under two months.
 
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