Australian Representative Herp Body

Discussion in 'Australian Snakes' started by champagne, May 9, 2014.

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  1. GeckoJosh

    GeckoJosh Almost Legendary

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    How are those plans going?
     
  2. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    The herp community is too disjunct and there were some disappointing responses to Gavin's and Greg's efforts. Greg and Gavin known about this thread, so they can comment if he wants to.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2014
  3. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    I am in no way at the level required to do this but I think we really need to get behind the people who can. Regardless of where you stand on crosses or pures, the rules current and coming in affect us all the same.

    what would people like to see the organisation achieve?
    I personally would like to see a carpet python unknown put on all licensing systems so that all the sibs and crosses can be separated from pure stock, I think this might ease some tension within purist part of the hobby as it will some what protect the pure lines and allow people cross breeding to be honest label animals for what they are.
     
  4. Owzi

    Owzi Well-Known Member

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    I voted for a political party in the last election but didn't agree with all of their policies. I would hope every private keeper would be 100% behind having an Australian herp body, even though there is no way everyone will be pleased 100% of the time. At least we would have a voice!

    If Gavin & Greg are looking at this, I'd like to say I would love to see this happen! I would support it 100%. I didn't contact either of you at the time to show my support. I'm not a huge user of this or other forums. I've been keeping herp for over 20 years. I doubt more than a couple of people even know who I am posting here. I know many other people who prefer to stay away from all social media who happily enjoy private reptile keeping & they would all support this.
    My point is- think of all the private people who are out there quietly enjoying their hobby away from social media, hoping this comes together.
    I've heard other people suggest "build it & they will come", I think that's spot on & you shouldn't be turned off by the response from APS or from a expo/festival that was interstate for many of us.

    The private reptile keepers of Australia need this
     
  5. I often hear this. If private reptile keepers "need this," then they need to articulate why they need this... What do they actually need? At the moment there are heaps of keepers saying just this, but the actual problems are never articulated. There would be as many perceived "problems" as there are keepers, and that's just the start.

    Make a list of the issues that you think a representative body should deal with, in order of priority. No one has done that to date...

    Jamie
     
  6. Waterrat

    Waterrat Almost Legendary

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    Here is a start Jamie, others feel free to add.

    1/ Abolish interstate trade restrictions – no import / export permits.
    2/ Allow trading with all species privately as well as at reptile expos in all States and Territories, not just selected species – they were all bred in captivity.
    3/ Abolish annual returns (already existing and successful in Qld).
    4/ Provide guidance to keepers instead of enforceable restrictions, e.g. cage sizes.
    5/ Stop referring to captive bred reptiles as “wildlife” because it is not. It’s a product of herpetoculture.
    6/ Make uniform laws / regulations / procedures nation wide.
    7/ Abolish the 6 months holding period, it’s futile and often ignored by keepers.
    8/ Implement restrictions and regulations only when it concerns conservation of species.
    1/ Abolish interstate trade restrictions – no import / export permits.
    2/ Allow trading with all species privately as well as at reptile expos in all States and Territories, not just selected species – they were all bred in captivity.
    3/ Abolish annual returns (already existing and successful in Qld).
    4/ Provide guidance to keepers instead of enforceable restrictions, e.g. cage sizes.
    5/ Stop referring to captive bred reptiles as “wildlife” because it is not. It’s a product of herpetoculture.
    6/ Make uniform laws / regulations / procedures nation wide.
    7/ Abolish the 6 months holding period, it’s futile and often ignored by keepers.
    8/ Implement restrictions and regulations only when it concerns conservation of species.
     
  7. GeckoJosh

    GeckoJosh Almost Legendary

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    I would love to see all of those points considered WR, however I am curious to hear other reasons why the 6 month should be abolished?
     
  8. SamNabz

    SamNabz Very Well-Known Member

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    As Michael mentioned, most of us ignore the 6 month rule as it's rubbish.. However, one good reason to remove it (IMO) is to do with new keepers. For example, if they find it hard to care for a new species they have purchased, then it will surely perish due to them not being able to move it on to someone with the experience needed to keep it alive.
     
  9. Dragon_77

    Dragon_77 Guest

    l to would like to see the 6 month holding period that we are required to keep Reptiles for removed completely, why because if the keeper no-longer has enough money or seem fit to look after and care for them properly, why should they be force to keep looking after their beloved pet reptiles.

    The reptiles should be moved onto another licence keeper ASAP, who can provide them a new home where they will be well looked after and cared for.:).
     
  10. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    An undertaking of this nature requires numerous things to succeed but perhaps the most basic is substantial widespread support from the hobby. Despite the supposed interest, when APS users were given an opportunity to demonstrate that support, it did not happen. Only a handful of people responded to the call. Disappointing for Gavin and Greg and disappointing for those who did show their support. To continue along the same path with such a low level of demonstrated support cannot be justified in terms of peoples' time, effort and hopes.

    The attitude expressed here seems to be part of the problem. We have a statement that says: "I also think that it should just be done and if it falls flat on its face then at least the people involved can say we tried". And another statement that denigrates the effort to make a difference in the NSW caging issue, a particularly well organised and professional group, ridculing their results. The values here seem opposite (even allowing for the ignorance of what actually took place in NSW). Yet people seem supportive of this duplicity. Does this mean that to "just have a go" is really OK only if you succeed? Are people really prepared to go the long road when things get tough? Are they likely to to jump ship at the first sign of trouble?

    There are other paths available but they sill have to climb the same mountain of difficulties. They also ultimately require the same level of universal support if they are to succeed.

    Blue

    PS. "....clearly Gavin has the time or he wouldn't of bothered starting this whole thing". If you have ever had dealings with him, you would know that Gavin is a very busy person. I have no doubt he would nave been making the time because he believed this was sorely needed and worthwhile enough to do so.

    Sorry this is late in being posted and the topic has moved on a bit.
     
  11. eipper

    eipper Very Well-Known Member APS Veteran

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    The 6 month rule is in place to stop private "dealers" setting up like a pet shop
     
  12. GeckoJosh

    GeckoJosh Almost Legendary

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    I was happy to support the move (and still am) but I stopped bothering to read the threads Gavin posted due to the constant bickering that I was forced to sift through
     
  13. Focus

    Focus Not so new Member

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    I've always supported the idea. I may be naive, but I don't really see a downside to it. I'd be interested to hear reasons why this shouldn't be supported. Are there reasons why it might be a bad thing?

    Or are critics mostly worried that they'll have to part with their money for potentially no results?
     
  14. Snake_Whisperer

    Snake_Whisperer Very Well-Known Member

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    You of all people know first hand how hard it is to get people off their arses to do ANYTHING as a group in this hobby Sandee! Lol, how many miles did we put in trying to get the original HSQ back on track? Sure there were a lot of good intentions, of course we had the usual half dozen of us giving it our respective bests, plus some top shelf input from Jaime, who was happy to contribute despite having his own issues in the NSW herp world.

    To see someone spouting off like an ignorant douche is EXACTLY why anyone with any real passion for seeing the hobby become a legitimate entity ends up throwing up their hands and saying stuff it. It's certainly why I walked away, and I know many, many others who are in the exact same boat.

    Champers, we are all awaiting a status update on your progress with this monumental task! :facepalm:

    P.S. You can thank yours truly for the facepalm emoticon here on APS. I specifically requested it as a simplified answer to most of what I've read in this thread.
     
  15. I agree whole heartedly with the above post. In reality people very few people from interstate or even QLD were going to travel to an expo just to show support for an idea that may or may not happen. I don't think this is a fair indication of the willingness of the community to support a national body. Likewise most of the plebs in the community such as myself for various reasons wouldn't have emailed showing support initially either.

    I'm sure once something is up and running and it is run by people without an agenda and truly represents the general community and not just fractional groups it will gain widespread support.
     
  16. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    You are absolutely right everyone should just sit back and do nothing because the first attempt to get the message out there was poorly advertised so therefor not supported well.

    As for your whinge about the nsw caging comments. It was made after someone said that we should just be getting behind herp societies and groups. I clearly said you can throw what ever experts you want at the government but if you don't have a presents at their level (political), then they will just do exactly what they did. Despite everyone's efforts the fact is they were never going to change anything and if we don't what to get screwed even more then we need a political presence, that's is the facts like it or not...
     
  17. Bluetongue1

    Bluetongue1 Guest

    Moving on, Champagne, your comment on providing people with a sense of what they can get out of it, such as a list of problems that could be takcled, has merit. So I am glad to see it being discussed. I don't know how much much more support it will draw, given that Gavin had already indicated how it could function along those lines in general, with some specific examples thrown in.

    The question I would ask is what happens when there is not a political case pending? While you see a need it is much easier to garner support. Once the list of problems has been tackled and won, lost or agreed to compromise, will the support base remain during these periods? What about when only one state or territory is still struggling and every one else is OK? Will it be a case of I'm alright Jack?

    As a result of those concerns, I would like to see a broad-based organistion providing opportunities for education, promoting conservation, public awarness, quality care and herpetological opportunities for members that would not normally be available to them. Hopefully something of this nature would be able to maintain a stable membership irrespective of any given function at any given time.

    Blue
     
  18. GeckoJosh

    GeckoJosh Almost Legendary

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    Maybe the AHS could step up to the challenge?
     
  19. champagne

    champagne Well-Known Member

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    I couldn't agree more with those points. I think there will always be problems to fix and improvements to be made. The thing people need to remember is problems in other state affect everyone ie people don't want to export out of NSW because of the export permit hassle, the oversize caging requirements for turtles and monitors will affect keeping and breeding therefor availability, imports into wa and Tassie will open up huge markets, getting expo rules between states lined up so breeders can bring animals into different states easier to display, also being able to buy animals at expos in different states and bring them home with you. These are all points that affect everyone and we all need to stand united. maybe the organisation should have it set up so you can donate directly to a campaign, that way it would put to eliminate the whole agenda thing.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  20. Unfortunately you're still living in a theoretical world champagne, for a start - the population bases in WA and Tassie will not sustain the opening up of "huge markets." Written into a 5 line paragraph, it all seems simple, as any of these things always seem to be when viewed from the comfort of your lounge chair. Reality is very different indeed - Michael's well thought out list gives an insight into the range of approaches that need to be made to governments at both the federal and state levels, and this is without first consulting widely with the herp community across the country. Your suggestion, champagne, that this can be effectively done electronically, pretty much guarantees failure because nothing is as effective and time-saving as face-to-face contact.

    Contact with the various State and Federal bodies will be protracted, and possibly take 10 years to change the direction of the ship, the direction of which suits most bureaucrats and always makes them resistant to change - why should they? There are issues of power operating very clearly in the wildlife area - the bureaucrats will not give the reptile-interested community the autonomy it seeks because there are people within that community who continually stretch the limits of their tolerance and thus damage our collective image, and each state will jealously guard their right to run their own show.

    We can speak for the 98% of legit keepers who are simply interested in these creatures, but it's the 2% who are cowboys even now when management is tight, who will hold us back in getting consensus on a more liberated approach.

    Jamie
     
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