Australian Representative Herp Body

[Waterrat]

It has been mentioned that the restriction on interstate trade in unconstitutional.
Yes, it is. To change it will require consultation with a constitutional barrister QC briefed by senior lawyer, application fees, etc., etc.. Unfortunately, the government has the means and desire to stretch court proceedings against them beyond normal time frame and usually beyond the plaintiff's budget. Jamie can confirm that such option has been considered (in 2010-11) by a herp group we were part of but you can just imagine the costs involved - and that only one point on the long list.

This is not being a negative assumption, that's how it is and it demonstrates what financial powers the organisation will have to have to succeed.

 

[RoryBreaker]

Is this the type of organisation we need to build/want in Australia?

United States Association of Reptile Keepers

if so what's next required step along this path?

 

[Wild~Touch]

IMO...It would be a wise move to check out the Mission Statement of USARK then perhaps use it as a basis for something we could aim for...
We Australians can learn from USA and certainly don't have to copy/mimic them as our country and conditions are not the same.

Is this the type of organisation we need to build/want in Australia?

United States Association of Reptile Keepers

if so what's next required step along this path?

 

[Bushman]

This is turning into a good discussion. I particularly like Jamie's go forward approach and Michael's response with a list of things to put on the agenda.
I think we're all in agreement that something must be done and we need to band together to create a force to be reckoned with. United we stand and divided we fall!
It's critical that we put our minor differences aside and unify ourselves into a powerful group that has a strong voice with political clout.
Now we need an action plan.

 

[champagne]

Unfortunately you're still living in a theoretical world champagne, for a start - the population bases in WA and Tassie will not sustain the opening up of "huge markets." Written into a 5 line paragraph, it all seems simple, as any of these things always seem to be when viewed from the comfort of your lounge chair. Reality is very different indeed - Michael's well thought out list gives an insight into the range of approaches that need to be made to governments at both the federal and state levels, and this is without first consulting widely with the herp community across the country. Your suggestion, champagne, that this can be effectively done electronically, pretty much guarantees failure because nothing is as effective and time-saving as face-to-face contact.

Contact with the various State and Federal bodies will be protracted, and possibly take 10 years to change the direction of the ship, the direction of which suits most bureaucrats and always makes them resistant to change - why should they? There are issues of power operating very clearly in the wildlife area - the bureaucrats will not give the reptile-interested community the autonomy it seeks because there are people within that community who continually stretch the limits of their tolerance and thus damage our collective image, and each state will jealously guard their right to run their own show.

We can speak for the 98% of legit keepers who are simply interested in these creatures, but it's the 2% who are cowboys even now when management is tight, who will hold us back in getting consensus on a more liberated approach.

Jamie

ok maybe huge was the wrong world but allowing imports and export into tas and imports into wa will defiantly increase the market both ways. Opening up a export world wide of captive bred reptiles would be more appropriate to the huge market I stated. I never stated this could be done electronically but getting the message out there and therefor the needed support can be done electronically tho. I think we all understand that this is going to be tough but it needs to be done so where do we go from here what do the people who have the ability to make this happen need?

 

[jedi_339]

It has been mentioned that the restriction on interstate trade in unconstitutional.
Yes, it is. To change it will require consultation with a constitutional barrister QC briefed by senior lawyer, application fees, etc., etc.. Unfortunately, the government has the means and desire to stretch court proceedings against them beyond normal time frame and usually beyond the plaintiff's budget. Jamie can confirm that such option has been considered (in 2010-11) by a herp group we were part of but you can just imagine the costs involved - and that only one point on the long list.

This is not being a negative assumption, that's how it is and it demonstrates what financial powers the organisation will have to have to succeed.

Was it looked at as a class action lawsuit Waterrat?
Not that I know how much any legal challenge like that would cost, but presumably a class action lawsuit would reduce initial fees?? Just a thought.

 

[Sean_L]

Theres one thing that has me truly interested to know.

So far, throughout this dicussion, a number of individuals have put forward their opinions and ideas as to how push this plan into action. Those that have experience with previous, similar endeavors have explained how some of the ideas would fail and how others could only work under special circumstances. Thats fair enough. Its great that we have ideas men (and women) and also realists who have real experience in this area.
Despite a little bickering, and a little negatively and a whole lot of positive, albeit sometimes wishful thinking; one thing is quite clear. We all seem to want this to happen, whether because we truly believe its the right direction, or even just because it sounds like it might be better in the long run and we guess it couldnt hurt.

The thing Im interested to know is this..........Is there anybody out there that doesnt agree with this proposal? Or are we in total agreement that it is a good idea. If we are, Id like to point that out to everyone, that despite the varying reasons for desiring this change, it is infact something we all want. Surely that somehow makes it easier to put in place.

So again, is there anyone out there that has valid reasons for disagreeing with this proposal?
Id like to think they wont be totally ripped apart if they put forward a genuine opinion. But no guarantees, right.

 

[Pythoninfinite]

ok maybe huge was the wrong world but allowing imports and export into tas and imports into wa will defiantly increase the market both ways. Opening up a export world wide of captive bred reptiles would be more appropriate to the huge market I stated. I never stated this could be done electronically but getting the message out there and therefor the needed support can be done electronically tho. I think we all understand that this is going to be tough but it needs to be done so where do we go from here what do the people who have the ability to make this happen need?

Primary needs are patience, time, money and focused support which need to be given to articulate, good communicators, and who need to be trusted to do the groundwork without aggressive, argumentative interjection from those with self-interest motives. Reliable cash-flow is critical because this would likely be a full-time job for at least one person, and as someone (bt1 I think) mentioned, as needs vary, the group energy ebbs & flows - if there are few urgent issues, interest drops away and support diminishes... it's human nature.

Any court challenges, especially in constitutional matters, could end up costing in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, with no guarantee of success, even advice from a Constitutional lawyer could cost several thousand dollars. These are big undertakings that would need the committment of a very large number of keepers who would need to be prepared to "give it a go" with no guarantee of success.

Jamie

 

[champagne]

Theres one thing that has me truly interested to know.

So far, throughout this dicussion, a number of individuals have put forward their opinions and ideas as to how push this plan into action. Those that have experience with previous, similar endeavors have explained how some of the ideas would fail and how others could only work under special circumstances. Thats fair enough. Its great that we have ideas men (and women) and also realists who have real experience in this area.
Despite a little bickering, and a little negatively and a whole lot of positive, albeit sometimes wishful thinking; one thing is quite clear. We all seem to want this to happen, whether because we truly believe its the right direction, or even just because it sounds like it might be better in the long run and we guess it couldnt hurt.

The thing Im interested to know is this..........Is there anybody out there that doesnt agree with this proposal? Or are we in total agreement that it is a good idea. If we are, Id like to point that out to everyone, that despite the varying reasons for desiring this change, it is infact something we all want. Surely that somehow makes it easier to put in place.

So again, is there anyone out there that has valid reasons for disagreeing with this proposal?
Id like to think they wont be totally ripped apart if they put forward a genuine opinion. But no guarantees, right.

they only objection I would have is if the licensing system did stay even tho captive bred pet reptiles aren't wildlife, I wouldn't want a nation license but individual state licensing that are inline with each other. The reason for this would be to stop a new rule being rolled out across the board, at least if each state was individually run we would have a chance to stop it from spreading Australian wide and also be able to use the pressure from other states to push back.

 

[RoryBreaker]

We can't put the cart before the horse. Big picture issues at first. We need to sandbag our current laws first (from incremental increases on restrictions).

Where to from here?

Until some form of society,association or whatever entity is formed, it will have to rely purely on donations. Some form of membership system can be implemented once becoming incorporated to keep everything above board.

Someone will have to put their hand up to be the initial figurehead. Someone will have to set up and run a webpage where donations can be collected and for the easy distribution of information. More of a bulletin board for people to see. People will have to be prepared to invest their own time attending meetings, gatherings and volunteers will be required to spread the message at the expos. Running a table etc. fB can be a tool used effectively to channel interest back to the webpage or relevant discussion on a forum. Just running a group via fb is destined to fail, as it can't be readily found from a search engine.

All reptile related forums will need to be approached and recruited to get on board to assist in the effort. It will benefit them in the end with increase traffic.

These are just some of my random thoughts on attempting to get this thing up.

Cheers,
Dave.

 

[Waterrat]

So again, is there anyone out there that has valid reasons for disagreeing with this proposal?

Sean_L, we don't know exactly, not even roughly at this stage what the proposal will cover.
I believe Gavin is preparing a response to the more meaningful posts in this thread and I trust we will hear from him soon.

 

[chimerapro]

Here's a comment from a recent discussion I had with Andrew Wyatt: It is very difficult to overcome the apathy and negativity of the industry and actually get things off the ground. It is a full time job for someone who is strong and determined enough to take on the challenge. It took me two years of not getting paid and living off my savings to get USARK off the ground. I almost went bankrupt... and the negativity, gossip and rumor mongering are beyond belief. BTW- that never stops, even if you have great success. Not many people are willing to go through all of that.

 

[champagne]

Here's a comment from a recent discussion I had with Andrew Wyatt: It is very difficult to overcome the apathy and negativity of the industry and actually get things off the ground. It is a full time job for someone who is strong and determined enough to take on the challenge. It took me two years of not getting paid and living off my savings to get USARK off the ground. I almost went bankrupt... and the negativity, gossip and rumor mongering are beyond belief. BTW- that never stops, even if you have great success. Not many people are willing to go through all of that.

I think the idea of a website with updates and a donation point so we can get a slush fund going, so someone can work on this full time or a couple of people part time. Even setting up a membership where every month a set amount continues to come out that way with everyone's busy life we don't forget and a monthly payment over a lump sum will work better for a lot of people. anyway I will wait to hear from gavin to see what he needs to go forward from here

 

[Bluetongue1]

Sean L, there are about 25 individuals who have posted in this thread, of which 20 made a constructive comment rather than just asking a question. With 20 super keen individuals, or even 25 behind it, a federal representative body is just not going to fly!

So yes, it will require a different approach to see if much more widespread support is out there waiting for something more solid and definite to grab hold off.

Champagne, I can assure you that we will never have a national licence. Each state is given responsibility for looking after native flora and fauna and they are not about to relinquish any of their individual power.

As Jamie pointed out, you can forget about challenging the import/export duties. We looked at this some number of years back and came to the simplistic conclusion (i.e. no lawyer) that the states justification would be that they have been given responsibility for their wildlife by the Commonwealth. Therefore they are simply recouping costs involved in record keeping in the performing of their Commonwealth responsibilities.

What can be achieved is sensible change, usually only a little at a time. For example, the federal body might tackle the 6 months proviso. They would ask for sensible suggestions from the membership. From these they would put together what they consider an acceptable submission plus a detailed rationale. This would then be put to a member's vote. For example, they might realise there is no point in asking for it to be totally abolished. So instead, they ask for it to be reduced across the board to 3 months. In addition, they also generate an exemption form with tick the box - such as "incompetent keeper", "unable to continue to keep due to illness", "first reptile was not what they thought it would be and no longer want it" etc. If what Scott E. says is correct, any individual submitting more than x number of exemption forms within a given time period is looked at more closely. If the masses give that the thumbs up, then the processes of representative lobbying and negotiation begin.

There is no question that a website will be a critical component. How else are you going to contact an Australia wide audience without spending a small fortunate on snail mail, not mention the time involved. A FB page as an adjunct to to the website just makes good sense in covering all bases. i know nothing about instagrams, so no comment. OK, I admit it. I am a technology dinosaur.

I believe the services of such an organisation should extend beyond just lobbying. This is where input from you guys is important in helping to define the functional parameters of the body. It would be such a waste not to fully utilise the capabilities of such an organisation.

Blue

 

[glebo]

[FONT=&quot]Hi All – sorry it is such a long post but I hope it puts things into perspective![/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1. I am not exactly sure where to start to respond to much of what has been said on this thread. First let me give a big thanks to those who have personally seen me or otherwise contacted me to pledge their support because in my mind this is just so critical. A particular mention must go to Greg, Jamie and Mike, because it takes more than one to initiate and pursue this and they are the team that has played a big part in getting this topic and idea this far. To those who have questioned where the idea of a federal body for reptile keepers is at and why it has not gone further, I also thank you both for your continued enthusiasm and the reminder. I do apologise for letting so much time slip by. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]2. You may say ‘everything is going along fine’, so why do I need to support the initiative of a federal representative body. It is no longer just a possibility but is now actually a likelihood that things we do not view as necessary, or even things that impinge on our enjoyment in the hobby, will be placed on us by Governments or bureaucrats (and others). These people have no interest in us even having reptiles (in some states). Pet keepers of all types are being targeted by lobby groups that will not rest until there are no longer animals used by humans (at the most extreme end of the spectrum) or until there are no reptiles in captivity (the bit that will directly affect us). If allowed, they will do this by ensuring that the restrictions imposed on reptile keepers are so demanding and restrictive as to make them unworkable. Such animal rights groups already have the ear of Governments and some possibly even hold positions within them. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]3. Sorry if this all sounds far-fetched and not possible but if you doubt the power that these fanatic animal activists can wield, then have a look at an ABC program on the small family and community run abattoir in Victoria. OK, not reptile keepers but sabotaged by the same groups that could quite easily have its sights on reptile keepers. (//www.abc.net.au/landline/content/2013/s3858413.htm). One has to wonder just how much sway animal activists already hold over government bureaucracies to achieve that sort of result. Similarly, in NSW, the bureaucracy has pushing through the mandatory cage sizes and arrogantly ignored input from what may well be the most accomplished and experienced reference group of reptile keepers put together in this country. There appears to be no rational justification for that. The question is, who was pushing it and why? And one for the future... what will be next? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]4. We need an active lobby group that can take on Governments and make them accountable through negotiation, in the first instance, and legally where Governments and their departments err. It really doesn’t take much for Governments to become conciliatory and negotiate outcomes with interest groups when the interest group is large, organised and prepared to stand up for itself. As our group gets bigger and more organised, Governments would then seek out the organization for input before they actually do something that would affect us. By seeking us out as a large and powerful group they would do more than just pay lip service as they do currently because it would be in their interest to do so. As Paul Keating the former Prime Minister said – ‘trust self interest because it is a winner every time’. As the organization gets bigger and more and more people keep reptiles, Governments see a voter base that is worth pandering to in many instances. Only with the powerful bargaining chip of a large organisation behind us can we effect and direct change, rather than being subjected to it and completely voiceless as we are currently.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]5. We are disjointed in both geography and ideology, we are mixed as to what we consider is good and bad. For example one post on this thread is apparently saying that QLD has it so good that there is no point in pursuing anything that may jeopardize the status quo, and almost in the same breathe another is saying import export issues are a concern, QLD included! As a group we struggle to agree in even simple matters. There are almost as many views as there are people discussing it and we seem very good at hindering each other, be it to do with points of view or personalities or simply because we are feeling digruntled and want to share our misery around. We are also getting hung up on detail. What is a hybrid, should you have it, how did you get an animal from there? In the overall scheme of things, this might be interesting but it is also detail that could be addressed as part of a code of practice that we write and taken on board by Government, but to spend all this time and energy on it here only prevents us from progressing the discussion onwards to look at things that do matter – us having a voice! In my mind it has always been the bigger picture – the benefit to the HOBBY (or business or enterprise – whatever you want to call ‘keeping reptiles’).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]6. We have a diverse hobby and becoming more so which means that there will be more issues but they become more diffuse because there are fewer people interested and involved in each of the aspects of the hobby. We also have a fair number of state based reptile groups and this is growing annually. We also have an incredibly diverse set of skills in the people who keep reptiles and are passionate enough to want to make a difference. Unfortunately this all means not a jot if we are not cohesive and united in the way we present ourselves. Meanwhile the Government just laughs out loud at this because while we are infighting (and they may be fuelling it for all I know) we go nowhere, the laws become tighter (cage sizes as an example), the animal activists have more say at the state and federal level as to what we can and can’t do (yes they are organised and powerful and becoming more so) and we can’t do a thing about it because we don’t have a voice[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]7. A post by OWZI said: “I voted for a political party in the last election but didn't agree with all of their policies. I would hope every private keeper would be 100% behind having an Australian herp body, even though there is no way everyone will be pleased 100% of the time. At least we would have a voice!” Everyone accepts this idea as it is how our system works. Even if you didn’t vote for the team that was elected you still pay tax, you still go to work or school or whatever and life goes on and you hope that the team you either voted for or didn’t vote for (ie: the one in power) does the best for the country they can and makes your life better, increases the quality of life, and the country as a whole prospers. In my mind this was exactly what we were talking about. The idea that not everyone will like everything that a Parent reptile keeping body will say or do, but if there are enough checks and balances put in at the administrative and general levels to ensure that the VOICE of the general herp keeper is heard and the direction and concerns of the general herp keepers are addressed at whatever level is needed then the group would serve an incredibly important function for its members. It would also negate the sentiment expressed by Sean_l of “What’s to say that the heads of the national body don’t take things too far”. Right from the start of this process I pointed out it will be a long one, not everyone will agree, there will be pitfalls and detractors as well as fervent supporters, but above all that if we do it right we only have to do it once – if and only if there is support from a majority of the herp fraternity who want to make it happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]8. Here is where I am at. I along with Greg Miles, Jamie Stewart and Mike Lynch we have bandied this idea around and done the market research to see whether the idea of a federal or Australian reptile keepers association will float. Will we get it off the ground and is it worth the effort? At this stage the four of us have given it a red hot go and while there are many detractors who say we went about it the wrong way or we are arrogant or we didn’t advertise enough or consult enough or whatever, the truth as we see it is there is not the support that we had hoped. This doesn’t mean there isn’t support because there is and I absolutely appreciate everyone who was willing and still is willing to help make this happen including the young lawyer lady who very early on put her hand up! However I live in Darwin and have spent the better part of 10 years fighting to get Oenpelli pythons into captivity. I was been brow beaten and told why it can’t happen from both Governments and the general public (this still continues). After achieving permission to captive breed these snakes and do what was seen as unachievable, maybe I was drunk on my own small success and wanted to continue this by giving us all a voice. A voice that would reason with bureaucrats that are set to determine our future as keepers of reptiles, or these same bureaucrats who are being ‘requested’ by animal rights groups to impose ever more stringent regulations on what and how we keep reptiles. We deserve a voice and I am 100% behind us having a voice, however living in Darwin and being many thousands of kilometers from the corridors of power it is probably a better idea to have someone/s at the helm and others that can make things happen by being closer to the power source (reduce costs, improve immediate communication). To this end I am still prepared to help but feel I have given as much money and time to this cause without moving you all into action that I am prepared to do to date and so will continue to pursue and fight for the conservation of reptiles from the tropical north of Australia. I had hoped that we might all come together and fight for a common cause – our basic right to keep reptiles, plain and simple. While I had thought the right to keep reptiles was worth fighting for, it seems that sentiment is not universal – or is it?[/FONT]
Cheers and happy herping

[FONT=&quot]Gavin [/FONT]

 

[shamat]

I cant add any value to this thread but Have been watching it with great interest. For what it is worth a federally focused group for the benefit of all reptile keepers would have my support and i would be gratefully involved in any way possible.

 

[stencorp69]

I believe the ONLY way you'll get any reasonable communication with bureaucrats is via the political route. This is what Gavin was leaning towards - establishing ongoing dialogue with the relevant Ministers, certainly State and maybe Federally, is absolutely essential - dealing with the various National Parks and their office Johnnies is pretty pointless and leads to years of being given the runaround. This was the case in WA (10 years of pointless yakking with CALM) until we had two approachable Ministers (Judy Edwards (Lab) and Cheryl Edwardes (Lib)) across two consecutive governments. The process was started by Judy and continued after a change of government by Cheryl. Unfortunately we thought we had good cooperation from the (then) CALM bureaucrats, and left them alone for 12 months to draft the legislation - and they turned what could have been a great horse for West Australians into camel!

To achieve any change in attitude it has to be done at the political end (from the top down), and this would probably best be done by a professional lobbyist who understands the problems and can see both sides of any argument, and is used to dealing with politicians. Ministers traditionally take their advice from their departmental bureaucrats, and whilst ever this remains the case, we're p*ssing into the wind as far as achieving change.

I agree Jamie, after getting stonewalled with DEC for a couple of years, WAHS went down the lobbying route and have been able to slowly bring about change to the WA system. Our recent meeting had DPaW officers requesting we discuss issues with them first and give them the opportunity to resolve the issues rather than approach the minister. But the reality is to get a national group up and running you need to a committed group (10+ years), with set goals and you need to have a thick skin as there is plenty out there who'll tell how thing should be done or how better a job they would do after all the work is done or claim the glory after the event, but ask them for effort during the process and the silence is only broken by the lame excuses.

Its a pity the national group didn't get off the ground as every state is looking to "review" the wildlife laws with a view to standardise the laws. DPaW is looking at minimum cage sizes in WA and is in the process of looking to replacing the Wildlife Conservation Regs with the to be announced Biodiversity Conservation Bill. From what I have read it will effect the non R&A keepers more than us as the system looks to be based on the R&A system.

 

[champagne]

It's a bit hard to gauge support off a thread on aps. May I suggest before canning the idea due to lack of support maybe throw up a facebook page. Someone on another thread said they had a copy of your talk at scales and tails expo, can we get this posted on you tube. Also reptile radio are looking at doing a show this week. I just don't think the message of the exact problems we are trying to address has been put out there enough. If we can get a list of say 6 to 10 key issues in which the organisation wants to address maybe people will then see how this may effect them and get behind the idea/show their support.

- - - Updated - - -

Its a pity the national group didn't get off the ground as every state is looking to "review" the wildlife laws with a view to standardise the laws. DPaW is looking at minimum cage sizes in WA and is in the process of looking to replacing the Wildlife Conservation Regs with the to be announced Biodiversity Conservation Bill. From what I have read it will effect the non R&A keepers more than us as the system looks to be based on the R&A system.

A lot of people think cage sizing isn't going to affect them because they only keep one or two animals and it's true short term but what happens when people stop breeding monitors and turtles due to the oversized housing requirements now being put into place. Once these rules are put in place it is very easy for them to slowly increase the cage sizes, killing the hobby.

 

[Bluetongue1]

I cant add any value to this thread but Have been watching it with great interest. For what it is worth a federally focused group for the benefit of all reptile ke
epers would have my support and i would be gratefully involved in any way possible.

. Thank you shamat.

This is exactly the type of post we need and lots more of them!

Champagne,

Personally I think that it is a great idea. APS members should post here only (like shamat) so there is no double posting and inflating of numbers. I have already listed names here of those showing support.

At this stage nothing has been decided but discussions are taking place behind the scenes. Clearly, if sufficient support is in evidence then it will definitely go ahead.

Mike

 

[junglepython2]

. Thank you shamat.

This is exactly the type of post we need and lots more of them!

Champagne,

Personally I think that it is a great idea. APS members should post here only (like shamat) so there is no double posting and inflating of numbers. I have already listed names here of those showing support.

At this stage nothing has been decided but discussions are taking place behind the scenes. Clearly, if sufficient support is in evidence then it will definitely go ahead.

Mike

Maybe also approach Scales and Tales and try and submit an article, as well as flood facebook and approach the local societies to garner more support. As well as posts on other frequented reptile websites. Unfortunately APS rarely seems to have more then 50 users online at a time these days ( much less then it used to) so the perceived support may seem somewhat underwhelming if based purely on APS.